Evening Standard refers to painting of older woman as "this ancient crone...ghastliness of ageing flesh... this repellent body."

(i do realise that sounded rather up my own arse! )

tethersend. I realise thread has moved on a lot since i have been away . . . but with all due respect, i always found the 'art' which is taught in secondary schools is largely of the copy life, form, shape, light etc variety. Rather then what you learn later on at university about expression and what art is, can be, where it comes from inside a person and what it means to create it.

I don't find secondary school art and what a student would learn in relation to proportions it that comparable to the grown up art world. Its more comparable to a hobby artist who paints pretty watercolours of boats.

Mmm. I suppose I think this thread seems to be regarding Brian Sewell as some sort of alien from the planet Misogynist Ageist. I think he's from the same planet as us; are there really people on Mumsnet who ONLY read or post on the feminist threads? He's unusual in being paid by a national newspaper to express this bile, whereas we do it for nothing, but he's an awful lot closer to me than probably either of us feels very comfortable about IMO.

But perhaps that's because I shave my feet....

Joan, I've just been reading a thread about how all women shave their feet! I'm feeling less and less bothered to even shave my legs these days. I think there are some differences between the feminist section and mumsnet as a whole

I refused to sleep with Ronnie Wood because he wore Ugg boots.

I stand by that.

I have to say it is interesting reading this thread having also read the 'Which one of the Rolling Stones would you shag if you had to?' thread. Possibly not the same posters (I haven't compared) but the theme of the parts of the thread I saw was essentially 'YUK aren't they OLD, isn't that photo NAUSEATING'. Not all that far from Brian Sewell's reaction to the idea of actually looking at older people who apparently haven't given up on themselves as sexual beings. And yes they do look old, and also, non-plastic-surgeried, and physically fit, and look like they've enjoyed life, and they sure have a twinkle in their eyes.

I'm not an apologist for Sewell, and I like the painting. But shouldn't we consider that Mumsnet as a whole is hardly unaffected by ageism that to me looks very similar?

Well I read the thread and then Bidisha's blog including BS's comments and thought the painting would be shocking, and it's just not. It's really, really beautiful gay, male, old, whatever, how could anyone not see the beauty in her as captured by the artist? Might head up to the Portrait Gallery for a peek.

*by men as a whole, obviously

Xenia

I agree with all your comments. I know so many gay men..One of them doesn't have sexist tendencies and revulsion to breasts, menstruation, etc etc. The rest are younger Brian's.

The lesbians I know are not the same..They get very sick of being asked if some pig man can judge a 'kissing contest' between them but they aren't so extremely disgusted by women as a whole.

Wonder why that is...

P.S. According to my brother, the two gay friends he and SIL share a house with have none of these issues, so looking forward to meeting less closed minded people :)

I think he has quite a bit of anti woman form

Marking place to read later

I think he has a thing about ageing. Yet a large number of the over 70s it was reported last week have sex.

" British men have been attacked recently for being unromantic, bad in bed, and reluctant to ask people out. Do you agree?
Bella Anderson, Tenby

What should I know of sex with British men? Catherine the Great might have answered "Send me one, and a German, a Dane, a Swede, a Nubian and an Italian for comparison, and I will tell you", but I can't do that. All I can tell you is that, as I grow older the hunger grows, too; as a boy, I imagined that it would diminish with manhood, but it did not and at 40 I had three concurrent lovers for that happy summer. Now, I look in the mirror and ask the image if I would, were I half my age, go to bed with myself as I am now, and answer "No". Worse, I might run a mile."

Utterly bonkers to say that commenting that a gay man may not have as good an idea of what women look like naked outside of the world of magazines etc as a straight man is hate speech! Just statement of fact. I don't know what vaginas look like up close because I'm not very bendy or a lesbian. Is that hate speech too?

Sorry entered to soon.

Painting very much remind's me of my mother if she were ten-fifteen years older, and to me my mum is the ultimate symbol of beauty.

To the poster who said 'how would this be received if posted in Style and Fashion?'

I'd still be wishing it was a piece I could have in my home! :)

Nope I'm with you on your comment bronze. Not homophobic in the slightest IMO.

Gary i didn't think your comment was either. In the same way as I don't think mine was

And in a minute I am sure you will return to say that we are homophobic again because we feel the need to defend ourselves so strongly, so that must make us homophobic.

My statement regarding myself and Brian not being used to large, natural breasts is not homophobic. I'm not used to large, natural breasts and this is not because I'm gay/not gay whatever, it's because I don't get any opportunity (for want of a better word) to see large, natural breasts. The only large breasts I see are on the front covers of lads mags in the supermarket. I imagine because he's gay that he doesn't get much opportunity either. So with regard to this particular view of the female form we are both naive.

He made plenty of comments, grotesque and crone-like being two of them, which i completely disagree with.

I am baffled how I got drawn into this thread... I read the article and I thought I would comment that her proportions looked wrong to me and her belly button too high (so in that sense I agreed with Brian). And it was pointed out to me that larger breasts (with age) do look this and that the belly button is in the correct place because it's at the same height as her elbows. I then commented that it probably didn't look right to me, as this isn't the body that I see when I look in the mirror. And as you must be well aware, it's not the body Brian will see when he looks in the mirror either...

And breathe...

I put a whole load of information behind my post about gay men and their views of the female aesthetic. I also said some not all.

His revulsion seemed classic gay to me actually. I am not homophobic at all but it fit a very clear niche.
.." by ignoring the probability that as an experienced art critic he will likely have seen more naked females of all shapes and sizes than most of the posters in this thread put together. " Surely if he has seen goregous naked women painted in galleries and Benefitis supervisor naked or whatever that has no impact at all on what he thinks is beautiful. I don't understand the connection. I could see countless gorgeous women naked and not be moved in the same way as if I were lesbian. The number of such images I saw would not alter my reaction to them.

Not all gay men are repulsed by menstruation, large breasted women, breastfeeding and the like but sadly in my own experience many are. I hope that will change as they start more often to hire surrogates and have their own babies and hope my own experience is anecdotal and wrong. Actually surely it's proven that gay men are richer, better dressed and keep themselves better than the usual fat slob of a typical mumsnetters middle aged male straight husband who has let himself go.

How was my comment homophobic? Maybe I should have added the word naked but the implication was there

Helxi- you infer, they imply.

HTH.

MMMarmite

"Old people's bodies generally look grim" So ageism's fine then Helxi?

Don't delude yourself over the perceived physical aesthetics of the average OAP. Nevermind OAPS, a typical 16 year old won't find someone in their mid-thirties attractive, because they are 'old'.

Humans peak in their 20's and then decline, both physically and mentally.

Don't blame me, I didn't invent the species.

StealthPolarBear

Helxi, homophobia?

Well, let's have a look at some of the comments so far....

GaryTankCommander
"Right, studied self naked. I think it's because I'm just not used to large, natural breasts then. . I expect Brian isn't either!"

WitchOfEndor
"I think she looks like a lovely warm and friendly older lady, no crone likeness at all. When was the last time Briam Sewell saw a naked lady anyway?"

bronze
"I was wondering if he had seen less real older women because he is gay."

MooncupGoddess
"Brian Sewell has, er, issues. I would actually rather read him slagging off perfectly unexceptionable paintings of naked women's bodies than lingering in gruesome detail over depictions of male genitalia ('the glans, glistening softly in the delicate chiaroscuro while a light shadow falls over the scrotum' etc etc - honestly, he often writes things like this)."

Xenia
"I think it is because he is gay."

... this collection of snide inferences and blunt statements are essentially asserting that BS's brain can't grasp the 'beauty' of older females because he is homosexual, by ignoring the probability that as an experienced art critic he will likely have seen more naked females of all shapes and sizes than most of the posters in this thread put together.

It's no better than saying someone can't understand the concept of law and order because they're black.

I hope you'd realize that was hate speech.

I think it is because he is gay. I have often found that attitude in gay men. They keep themselves better, they stay slim and they are not that keen on talking about childbirth, menstruation and breastfeeding in the way some straight men are. I am not saying they are all like that but a good few are. Now that more are starting to have children that might change.

I now have a vision of a naked Brian Sewell, perhaps with a choir singing some of his father's music, may be a kind of interestingly ambiguous sexual image/picture "Art Critic Laid Bare" and on the one hand he is looking up to the naked older woman on the picture - wondering if he likes women and considering his relationship with his late mother and down below are the boys in their choir robes , I'm not happy with that bit, perhaps boys of 14+ and now Benjamin Britten and his "interests" are coming to mind too.

as a non-arty person, I think it's a lovely picture, of a normal, happy friendly older woman. I would be pleased to have a figure like hers at that age tbh.