Evening Standard refers to painting of older woman as "this ancient crone...ghastliness of ageing flesh... this repellent body."

For my two pennith, i think that painting is stunning.

LRDtheFeministDragon
"You are happily peddling racist ideas..."

That's utter nonsense. I've said people should not be criticised for ethnic features, and that there's nothing wrong in on enthic group using itself as a reference point (because there's nothing inherently malacious about that) when describing the morphology of other ethnicities, my own ethnicity included.

Please point out where the "racist ideas" lie in the above statement. Who exactly in the above statement is being singled out for race-based discrimination?

Brian Sewell is an exceedingly unpleasant person. It does not surprise me.

seeker
"And it's not actually the "fatness" Sewell has focussed on, it's the age."

The ageing process is shit and Sewell is old, so he should know. I doubt he'd have high praise for the image of a fat old man, whose gut was acting as fig leaf for his saggy undercarriage. Feel free to prove me wrong.

That is a really disgusting thing to say.

You are happily peddling racist ideas, but you get riled up about fat people (when no-one has remotely denied that being fat is often partly down to choices and being black is not). Clearly you simply want to go on the wind-up, as you're making straw man arguments.

A) I don't go around saying that either, because, apart from that being quite rude, black skin doesn't cost the NHS money and even if it did skin colour is not the responsibility of the individual. Given the lower rates of skin cancer amongst the Afro-carribean population it's proabably cost-effective, relative to caucasian skin.

B) This is in contrast to being a fat git. Or a (formerly white, now orange) sunbed-tanned-skin-cancer-volunteer dickhead. Both of these are irresponsible choices and worthy of criticism.

Are you incapable of seeing the difference between A and B?

And it's not actually the "fatness" Sewell has focussed on, it's the age.

Oh, good lord.

Are you deliberately missing the point?

Using your own body as a reference point isn't ok, actually. I don't go around saying 'ooh, you do have blackened skin, don't you?!'.

And B. S. never said anything about extended lips, which, AFAIK, don't cost the NHS a penny, unlike fat people.

To use your own body as a reference point when describing racial characteristics is perfectly acceptable. If I was in Africa and black person described me as having thin lips, pallid skin or pale eyes I wouldn't start crying about the 'racial abuse' I was being subjected to, because relative to them their statements would be wholly accurate. It would be different if the motive behind the statement was an abusive one. But as I've said, B. S. hasn't made any racial comment that can be equated with being 'fat', as racial characteristics are not choices.

I have no clue about what you're talking about.

What does this have to do with the thread, or anything else?

'prone to being a victim' is obviously nonsense. What, do you fondly imagine yourself controlling other people's actions perfectly all the time?

I never said BS was commenting on something unique to women, did I?

There is something wrong with the presumed norm about 'extended lips', because it is racist. I have explained quite clearly why this is so. It's a pity you can't bring yourself to apologise, isn't it?

LRDtheFeministDragon
"What does you being prone to violence matter? If you did assault someone, even in your own home, you risk being put in prison. Better to lock the door. "

I'm not prone to being a victim. And lock doors, ah, the thing that prevents 100% of burgularies. Lol. Rather be in front of a jury of 12 than on a coroner's table. As long as you don't hit them from behind or smack them with a hammer 20 times you should be fine.

And again, B. S. is not commenting on something that is unique to women. There is nothing wrong with a 'presumed norm' that doesn't involve being unhealthly fat through your own choices, if that is B. S.'s opinion of this women. Whether his point is medically valid or not is an issue which I'm not qualified to comment upon.

I don't think you've understood my post, or read it properly.

'Extended' means 'made bigger than'. It is inherently a term of comparison to a presumed norm. Yes?

'Blonde', OTOH, is not.

So you are not comparing similar things.

To say black people have 'extended' lips is to assume that normal-size lips are caucasian-style lips that protrude less far. But there is no reason to assume caucasians are 'normal' and black people are 'abnormal'. That's racism.

As to the other point, I have no idea what you're on about. Smackheads?! This is about a picture of a woman and whether or not her being fatter than a slender young model bothers us. What does you being prone to violence matter? If you did assault someone, even in your own home, you risk being put in prison. Better to lock the door.

LRDtheFeministDragon
"But also, I objected to you saying 'extended' lips were an 'intrinsic' feature of black people, because that assumes that 'normal' lips are caucasian. It's positing a racist norm."

Uppercut
"Having "extended lips" is an intrinsic facial feature for many black people"

Blond hair is an instrinsic feature of many caucasians, high melanine concentrations are an instrinsic feature for many people on the Indian subcontinent, having very straight black hair hair is an instrinsic feature of many Asian people. To suggest that making these truthful statements about ethnic groups is to automatically 'posit a racist norm' is a load of b...

Talking about racial characteristcs does not make someone a racist, no matter how hard you want that to be the case. It gets very tedious listening to people's anally retentive social hang-ups being repackaged into someone else's 'thought crime'.

LRDtheFeministDragon
"I don't think discriminating against people who make poor choices is acceptable. I think that's pretty foul."

If you want to give sympathy and understanding to a smackhead breaking into your home in the middle of the night that's up to you. Good luck with that. On the other hand I'll intend to discriminate against him with the nearest heavy blunt object.

That extreme example of the practice of your attitude aside... fat people, and one's getting fat like me, impose a huge healthcare social cost just as junkies impose and health and criminal social cost. Go and look up the (projected) figures if you want. I accept criticism/discrimination for my health decisions because I'm not a member of the victim culture that insists its always someone else's fault.

It's not, it's my choice.

And if someone's pissed off that my choice is imposing a unfair social burden on them and want some healthcare-based discrimination imposed to rectify the balance, then that's fair enough.

"Discriminating against people who make poor choices is perfectly acceptable"

Wow. Let me just think about that for a while!

I don't think discriminating against people who make poor choices is acceptable. I think that's pretty foul.

But also, I objected to you saying 'extended' lips were an 'intrinsic' feature of black people, because that assumes that 'normal' lips are caucasian. It's positing a racist norm. I'm not denying that there is a difference between having lips of a particular shape, which you were born with, and being fat, so I'm not sure why you think I am.

Old(er) people a more prone to fat because a reduction in their basal metabolic rate; I'm getting fat. It is not exclusive to women.

LRDtheFeministDragon
"Ouch. No, really not, uppercut. 'Extended lips' implies that the default state of lips is to be caucasian-style, and that what looks perfectly normal is in fact an 'extended' version. It's positing a discriminatory norm, just as this is. "

Fat people are primarily fat due to their own choices, even regardless of age, myself included. Discriminating against people who make poor choices is perfectly acceptable. If someone f's up, they should be told so, because it's their decision to f' up. This is wholly unlike the facial features you are born with; the comparison is invalid.

You're very dry, seeker, but good point.

Normal sort of words to use about older women aren't they? You see similar on mumsnet every day......

Ouch. No, really not, uppercut. 'Extended lips' implies that the default state of lips is to be caucasian-style, and that what looks perfectly normal is in fact an 'extended' version. It's positing a discriminatory norm, just as this is.

Vickiw1
"How about if he'd used similar adjectives about a black person ... ooh look at the ridiculous, extended lips, the pudginess of the nose ... I wonder if his review would have even made it into the paper. I'm not arguing for the right to make hideously racist, spiteful remarks, more for the dignity extended to black people to be further extended to females, of all ages. It seems like people have forgotten that females bleed too. "

Your comparison is flawed. Having "extended lips" is an intrinsic facial feature for many black people. Being fat is not an intrinsic feature of caucasian females.

Well said!

(But, this is a really old thread so don't be upset if people don't reply - it's just been a long gap since the topic was posted, sorry!)

How about if he'd used similar adjectives about a black person ... ooh look at the ridiculous, extended lips, the pudginess of the nose ... I wonder if his review would have even made it into the paper. I'm not arguing for the right to make hideously racist, spiteful remarks, more for the dignity extended to black people to be further extended to females, of all ages. It seems like people have forgotten that females bleed too.

Just wanted to add that I like the picture. I've always thought Brian Sewell was verging on a parody of an art critic, so not really meant to be taken seriously. I'm not even sure he takes himself that seriously.

Oh no, my elbows come below my belly button! I'd better not have any portraits painted of me.
I think Brian Sewell's comments are horrible. They appear in large part to be about the subject, rather than the painting. I fail to see anything revolting about a painting of a healthy human body & think he has been extremely unkind.

What a bizarre review. Her body looks fine and normal to me, and her face has plenty of warmth and character.