50 Shades and ignore if you have already discussed

Merlin - agree totally.

WhatMe - I think the "women and porn" question is a whole lot bigger than this book. Caitlin Moran says some very sensible things about it in her book. I think it's taken a very very long time for the idea that women are allowed to like sex for itself to be socially acceptable in the first place (rather than something we tolerate for our husbands pleasure or we only want as an expression of love).

Then most actual pornography that is available today is made by unpleasant white men, is invariably dull, centred round male pleasure, incredibly misogynist, and produced using women who are routinely raped, kept doped up on drugs, subject to all types of abuse and frequently have serious mental health problems. See the documentary film "Hardcore" if you think it is anything else (and if you have a very strong stomach.)

Therefore, erotic literature, is perhaps where women can get to find something to suit them, and maybe that's why 50 shades is becoming so successful.... although I still have serious reservations about the messages being put out in there too. (Basically that abusive relationships are OK if the man is just a bit screwed up but loves you really. It's never OK. And a few loving words from a girlfriend don't actually fix abusers and turn them into nice guys, it generally gives them carte blanche to be worse than they were before)

It would appear it is now the best selling book in Britain ever

I think that's an emphatic end to the "women don't like porn" myth, but what does it say about our literacy.

I read Gail Dines' article.... Never read the book and never will...

This is a very retrograde and dangerous world for our daughters to buy into, and speaks to the appalling lack of any public consciousness as to the reality of violence against women.

This is so depressing...20 millions of women finding an abusive relationship sexually appealing.... really horrified about society nowadays.....

In fact Gail Dines has written an article about Fifty Shades of Grey and why women especially seem to like it so much. I'm not sure that she's catching all the psychology that's involved, but at least she's tackling the subject:

www.counterpunch.org/2012/07/27/why-are-women-devouring-fifty-shades-of-grey/

BIG RANT LOTS OF SPOLIERS

So glad to be able to express my views on this.... all the women around me have read this tripe and are gushing over it.

The whole thing is like a Mills and Boon with rather pedestrian dirty bits. It is the tamest S&M sex I have ever heard of, and tamer than what I suspect most couples get up to at some point.

The whole thing is ridiculous, right from the beautiful woman who for some reason was never attracted to a man till she was 22 (didn't she have the raging puberty hormones and college?) who has an incredible capacity for multiple orgasm on the drop of a hat (despite never masturbating before), never gets thrush or cistitis and is really rather whiny and annoying (eg when being driven to a secret location to escape the armed crazy person, thinks that's a good point for another deep relationship discussion.)

The most shocking part of the story isn't using handcuffs in the bedroom, it's the 22 year woman, 5 mins of our college and never had a boyfriend, marrying a bloke who is controlling to the point of abuse, who has serious relationship issues, and she has only known for a few weeks. Why did her family and friends not intervene?

The whole, virginal girl (why does she need to be a virgin?) getting swept off her feet by strong handsome rich and powerful man thing is pretty nauseating. Like that's everyone's actual dream. Great sex and being rich seem like nice things to have in life, but a man that gets angry at you every five minutes because you smile at someone, or want to go for a drink with your mates is abusive, not romantic. The fact that she enjoys the "punishment fucks" she gets when he is displeased does not mean that using sex, or anything else, as a punishment for stepping out of line is anything other than abusive. The fact that he has "issues" which make him like that don't excuse his behaviour. There is nothing wrong with S&M practices when everyone is consenting and it's a fun part of a loving relationship, but when it's one partner actually disciplining the other, or using it to work out their own problems on someone else, then it's not right.

Right at the start, she gets drunk and he "rescues" her by taking a drunk girl back to his hotel room, undressing her and sleeping in bed with her all night. In RL any woman waking up to that would be terrified and have good grounds to call the police.

It depresses me that there are millions of women out there who see this as something wonderful when it's just the Cinderalla story with spanking.

Heaven help us all if the men get a hold of this and start thinking it's a good idea to try behaving like that.

in one of the nancy friday books she suggests that rape/domination fantasy is often about women who have been brought up to feel that they shouldn't want/enjoy sex, and therefore in fantasy "he made me do it" releases them from their inhibitions.

Yes I can see the attraction in submission, definitely. In a non sexual context as well. It's exhausting being a responsible adult. Easier to hand the decisions over to someone else, then it's not your fault if things go wrong. It's risk aversion of sorts, I suppose. (Randomly reminded of Pa Ingalls bringing his family on the pioneer trail, there)

politically can see the benefits of a benign dictator too.

But the trouble is when you handover control how do you get it back. Real submission is a bit final, as opposed to playing at it.

there has been plenty of talk about women's secret supposed desire to submit, but not much about men's overt desire to dominate.

If they didn't have that there would be no such thing as power dynamics such as we currently see. (I can't imagine a world full of subs struggling to submit to someone who wants to submit back, how would that work then?)

A woman getting aroused by sexual submission is not a million miles away from a bullied child wishing to ingratiate to the bullies, or an abused spouse unable to leave her husband, imo.

Yes some people will be getting something out of the bondage type stuff although TBH if you previously had those tastes I don't think this would do it for you - there is not that much of that type of sex from what I have read so far. Apart from a couple of exceptions it's all been quite bog-standard IYSWIM.

What is true is that he is a very dominant person all the time - jealous, possessive, controlling, stalkery etc and that side of it is iffier than the sex I think.

Can't remember where I found it, and it was many years ago but the biggest ever survey of females and sexual fantasies was conducted and many did have fantasies to be dominated. The onus was on it being a fantasy (many would never carry them out even if the opportunity arose). Some of them were shocking. Must try and remember where I saw it.
The dominatrix business is vast, so I'm assuming men must enjoy being dominated too.

The idea that all women secretly desire to be dominated is indeed nonsense. But plenty of women seem to want to read about it and somehow participate in it as a fantasy. Or is that the wrong way to think about it? People with long memories might remember that this has happened before--with "Looking for Mr Goodbar". And I think all that vampire crap is related, too.

Agreed that a fair number of people will read something just because lots of other people are reading it. But still. It's this.

Meh

I think lots of women aree reading it because it's the "thing" at the moment. Rather than any other reason.

I'm reading them FGS a woman at school lent them to me. They are very badly written and the sex is not all that quite frankly.

You can't assume that someone reading something reflects their desires really. I think this idea that it must mean that all women secretly desire to be dominated is nonsense.

Ms AnnTeak, thanks. It's helpful to know what kind of conversations come from the book.

I'm going to try to leave this thread now, as I think I have said enough

Just quickly, I think that making it about women's choices and desires is where it becomes difficult, because you could make the same argument about the diet industry, say, or cosmetic surgery - women are making those choices too and promoting those products, but it doesn't mean they are not harmful.

It's a question of how much it really is women's agency or whether it is women buying into age old discourses about how women should be/how gendered relationships should be etc etc etc.

Also, I'm not sure that every reader is enthusiastic about the books. I certainly don't think feminism is reconciled to the phenomenon, there are mixed views as ever.

Summerflower, they range from 19 to 27. I wasn't suggesting you thought those reading 50Shades would rush into BDSM but there are those who see it as a slippery slope.
As part of our discussions we've covered females taking dominant roles in sex and not necessarily having to feel as if you have to be either passive, or submissive.

Summerflower, I don't think millions of women are going to rush into those relationships either. It's just interesting that this book has tapped in to something that is fundamentally appealing and sexually stimulating to these millions of women.

It is very interesting to see how feminism, fundamentally opposed as it is to the subjugation of women in any form, reconciles itself with these desires. Nobody is forcing anybody to read or buy the book. Indeed, women are recommending it to other women, and discussing it enthusiastically. There are no men involved, as far as I can see (except probably the publisher sat on a huge pile of cash). I don't know any man who has read it.

namechangeguy, I did realise that, but it was late - I think there are a number of possible ways of addressing your question, for example to look at the question of power and equality in sex historically, to look at whose interests are actually served by the dom/sub relationship personally and at a societal level (if you move away from the dynamics of an individual sexual relationship to wider social patterns) or to look at other forms of social organisation (i.e. matriarchal) and see whether you get those tendencies there.

The problem with the bazillion dollars in the bank is that it reflects gendered patterns of wealth more generally, which brings me back to the original point about power and equality.

But honestly, I am going round in circles here, and totally in vain. I honestly don't think, MsAnn Teak, that readers are going to rush into BDSM relationships, or as someone else suggested somewhere, enter behavioural contracts - but I do think you can modify your behaviour to suit a man and male social expectations, or assume a passive, subserviant role without doing those things. Not saying that every woman who reads this will do that, but it surely helps reinforce that position for women.

I'm curious to know how old your dd's are.

Because if he was a bin man or a street sweeper he wouldn't be able to fly her around in a helicopter.

Have 3dds reading the trilogy and none have expressed any desire to enter the world of BDSM. One dd hadn't read a book in years (think the last one was A Boy Called David), so hopeful this may be a stepping stone to other reading matter.

Well, I was playing devil's advocate. I do wonder if anyone has considered it though. Personally, I think the character's bazillion dollars in the bank plays a large part in making him attractive. I haven't read the books, but I wonder why the author didn't make him a bin-man, or a street-sweeper.

That's a red herring if ever there was one.

What if women's desire to be dominated came first, and lead to the current state of society?

runs away

You are attributing far too much reading-between-the-lines to the majority of readers.

They are told that he is gorgeous, rich, caring, intelligent, and amazing in bed.

So they believe it. Even though the "caring and intelligent" parts are only told to us and not demonstrated in any way.

The narrator believes that he does everything that he does because he cares. The shallow reader (not that she is shallow herself, but that she is reading in a shallow manner) agrees.

This is uncomfortable, but I can't help pointing it out: it is women who have made this book a best-seller.

This is uncomfortable, but I can't help pointing it out: it is women who have made this book a best-seller. Naturally feminists find it hideous, but the fact that so many other women don't agree must say something about women's outlook in general. A genuine desire to be dominated, or getting something out of one's system? I wonder if anyone at that Radical Feminism conference touched on it. Gail Dines might have had a lot to say, if she started looking at it.