Is feminism all about man hating?

But why would you ever argue there are none, especially as there clearly are? You just show yourself up as someone who can't see it, and then you've lost any credibility from the get go.

Multiply that by many interactions and you have a movement that won't convince anyone, the opposite in fact.

I would ask them if they could direct me to the toilets/bar/cloakroom/nearest exit.

Thanks for your links and posts blackcurrants - and nice to see you.

I would use my old standby 'I'm sorry you feel that way'. (But I really like 'You're a bit thick aren't you')

There is no point discussing anything with a person who thinks anyone should take that sort of tripe seriously.

That statement is about fear of losing out now that there is real competition -- it's not a reasoned comment about feminism.

Alternatively, I would ask who the man hating feminists are. Name names, etc. Describe what it is about them that makes them identifiable as man haters. I would ask for details of their agenda and references where I could look it up.

whatme I am rarely on a mission to convert belligerent types while I am at a party. As I said, it depends on my mood and energy levels but I can say what you quoted perfectly politely, with a friendly smile. Caling people out on 'stuff some bloke said down the pub' is a useful tactic.

My immediate response would be "I don't know any feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men, and I know loads. Who're you talking about?

and....

"You're a bit thick aren't you?" and smile sweetly and sympathetically.

While very tempting, I don't think its quite the way to win friends and influence people :)

If you want to influence them positively, you have to argue the point and IMO a better approach is a defusing concession followed up with your thinking - "yes, a small % of Feminists are anti male, but they don't speak for the majority - now here is what we think etce etc etc..."

I might try my Harry Enfield 'Mr Cholmondley-Warner' impression - 'Women, know your place!'

I would say: "You're a bit thick aren't you?" and smile sweetly and sympathetically.

argh, borked that. that should start

My immediate response would be "I don't know any feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men, and I know loads. Who're you talking about?"

• and then the rest.

mine would be "I don't know any feminists do you know who hate men and want women to be treated better than men, and I know loads. Who're you talking about?" and then watch them flap their mouths like a fish for a bit. If they came out with something cogent and seemed interested in discussing it further, I might go into the "lowest difficulty setting'' idea I posted that's here because that introduces the idea of privilege and systematic oppression without getting anyone's backs up too much. But that's IF I was in the mood to politely educate.

It's far more likely that I would smirk into my drink a bit then back slowly away from the tool. Or possibly start crying hysterically. Who knows, my lady-brain is full of whimsy and ruled by emotion! :)

"'I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.'

I have a question: You're at a party, restaurant, or some other happy social situation and someone says the above to you. What would your immediate response be?

'I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.'

Feminism is about recognising that sort of statement for what it is -- an expression of male entitlement and resentment, maybe even fear, at having their preferential treatment taken away from them, leaving them competing with other members of the human race with only their own merit going for them.

Feminism is about learning to recognise when people think something is a birthright and the methods they use to defend that right, including the unproven and unfounded implication in that statement that there are women out there who hate men and want to be treated better than men, that taints all feminism and all feminists and puts them in the position of addressing the fears of men, answering the accusations of men, and proving to men that they are not the scary sort of feminist.

I 'hate' patriarchy and what it does to people in the same way that I 'hate' capitalism and what it does to people. Both are systems which favour some people over others. Some people defend both of those systems (often because the systems are kind to them) - I don't hate those people but I reserve the right to believe they are very very wrong, and sometimes morally repugnant. Interestingly there seem to be more men defending patriarchy and capitalism than women, so chances are I find more men people than women people morally repugnant, but that's because of the privilege they fight to keep not their biological sex or gender.

ie yes of course a few women hate men, DUH, but what the fuck has that got to do with anything? blah blah blah back to the point...

Both things can be true at once.

But it's impossible to move on. The problem is that any woman saying "we live in patriarchy and there is a powerful strain of misogyny running through society" is called a man hater. But nobody ever calls a man a woman hater, even if he's for example, a rapper who makes money out of sickening anti woman lyrics, a user of violent porn, a politician who wants to control women's bodies ......I could go on.

feels Barry White-ish

Blackcurrants, your posts are spot on. That is why i am so when people say feminism has gone too far the other way and I'm like, fgs it'll take more than a few waves to wipe out the effect of thousands of years dogma.

It is all about what we're used to isn't it? When I see a spate of women talking on tv I notice it and think "mess what are moaning about?" until I realise that I have noticed it because it is unusual.

It is like this charming guy who once told me that the beeb was overrun with women producers. The actual figure is about 30% but to him it seemed like a lot because he simply wasn't used to it.

I really don't think this denial helps the argument. Its patently (and empirically) absurd and just makes a lot of the people you want to persuade shake their head and walk away as they think you've lost the plot before you've started your 2nd sentence..

Whereas IMO saying "yes - a % of Feminists/women hate men. A % of men hate women. Its pretty small overall, and thats the way life is - now, lets get on with the discussion". It defuses the issue - as Hully said above, you move onto "and some women hate cats, some hate ....".

Ah. Fight you for blackcurrants, then?

no in a "I am a lover" way

At a risk of sounding like a po faced, humourless feminist, saying that women are getting "het up" when they express themselves strongly is a classic silencing technique.

what, as in "Cillit Bang!- Bang! - and the dirt is Gone!"?

[ puzzled emoticon]

Het up? No, not at all. And please don't leave, the exchange of differing views is what makes this section so interesting.

OR, shorter - what hothead said.

Heh, I too am a lover, not a fighter. But sometimes one is called to fight, it seems.