Is feminism all about man hating?

I'd quite like to get paid 100 cents of every dollar, instead of 72cents. Erm, is that the sort of thing you mean?

Putting hatred aside, does anyone here have any feelings of prejudice that might affect their day to day dealings with men? For example I'd admit to a certain jealousy of the confidence and privilege that they appear to have.

To give an example when I'm in a mixed group of men and women the topics are usually very male centred; male singers, politicians, sportsmen etc and I often feel envious as it would be so nice to have men praising women's achievements (other than aesthetic). I don't think it affects my daily interaction with men (except for a pathetic appreciation of men who break the mould) but I do feel a certain resentment IYSWIM.

No problem, blackcurrants. Statements/meanings are easily misread or misunderstood on a forum like this. I am as guilty as anyone sometimes

namechange I apologise if I misread you. I thought that the whole 'she doesn't know me from Adam" indicated that you found this a sticking point. It's early here and I haven't had any coffee yet. I'll go back and re-read later. Now I must walk the dog!

I would like a medal, mind. Well, by 'medal' I mean 'some jaffa cakes.'
[wistful]

bloody bugs got in the bloody chocolate and I had to throw it out. I hate summer in New Jersey sometimes.

Blackcurrants said 'namechange why is your sense that it's not personally very nice being thought of as one of the 'oppressor' class rather than the 'oppressed' class more important than the fact that women are systematically oppressed?'

That is the polar opposite of what I said. I said that such feelings are understandable, and that it isn't my place to judge anyone who feels like that. I don't know how you arrived at the opposite conclusion. Have you confused me with someone else?

And personally, the white privilege thing is not something I am ignorant of, although people here do seem to like to regurgitate this point. Privilege based upon sex, race or class is not a new concept. I have a mixed-race wife of 19 years and two kids, so I am fully aware of issues that non-white people face in the UK. And I have only mentioned that because blackcurrants' post seemed aimed at me. If not, please excuse and ignore that last comment.

Precisely blackcurrants. I agree so much with what you say above.

And at 'give me a medal'.

whatme the thread has moved on slightly from this, but

"But why would you ever argue there are none, especially as there clearly are? You just show yourself up as someone who can't see it, and then you've lost any credibility from the get go.

Multiply that by many interactions and you have a movement that won't convince anyone, the opposite in fact."

I am not saying there are no feminists who hate men. I am saying that in twenty years of being an 'out' feminist I've never met one. The majority of feminists I know are rather like me, in fact, they live with men - some of them even birthed and breastfed and nurtured one or two - and so my response to "feminists are anti-men" would be "gosh, I've never met one. Could you tell me which feminists you know who are anti-men?" because if I know, say, two hundred feminists and none are anti-men (and some ARE MEN!), then it suggests to me that maybe these anti-men feminists are statistically outliers rather than the norm. Maybe they're not statistically significant or statistically meaningful at all. Maybe they're just brought up in an attempt to discredit anti-sexist activism, to shut down conversations about why sexism is wrong, and to make everyone feel better about the fact that 2 women die from DV a week and 1 in 5 women are raped in their lifetime, because HEY, even though we have all this evidence that men despise and maltreat women in the UK, look over there! That feminist says she hates men!

Pfft. It's a diversionary tactic, but protecting the bodies and minds of women and girls from the men in their lives who hurt and disrespect them is too important for me to be diverted. So I response "That's interesting that you say that, I've never met a single anti-man feminist" because (1) it's True and (2) it forces the speaker to either justify their prejudice/attempt to discredit anti-sexist activism, or at least reveal it some more.

I just returned to this thread after a pleasant night's sleep - and Beachcomber has done all the hard thinking/articulating that I thought I needed to do. Nice one! :)

namechange why is your sense that it's not personally very nice being thought of as one of the 'oppressor' class rather than the 'oppressed' class more important than the fact that women are systematically oppressed?

I mean, I'm white. It's not personally very nice being thought of as one of the oppressor class. But I am one. I'm white. I'm not rich but I was born to richer parents in a safer area because my parents were white, and theirs, and theirs, and theirs... I got to go to university and get my first jobs without worrying about being picked for 'tokenism' reasons. I don't get pulled over that much. I don't get "randomly" searched in airports. I don't get 'stop-and-searched.' I don't get stared at in remote rural parts of the country. Wherever I go in the UK, people look like me. Politicians look like me. Police officers look like me. Newscasters and pop stars look like me. My Whiteness tells me: The world is your oyster!
I get all these benefits of being white before I even TRY to benefit from social racism, before I even actively oppress anyone. Because I'm white in a racist society, it doesn't matter that I try not to be racist, I get the goodies anyway.

So it would be a bit rich if I spent time in anti-racist company insisting that they notice me and give me a medal for not personally being racist, and soothe my feelings about the fact that some nasty anti-racists might think that, because I'm white, I'm a racist.... even when I'm NOT! It would be a bit rich if I spent lots of energy insisting that some anti-racist activists tiptoed around my feelings instead of, y'know, talking about racism and how to stop it. Can you imagine walking into an anti-racism activism group or forum and saying "Give all your time and attention to me, Ms Whitey, instead of doing what you came here to do, which is stop racism! If you don't do this, you're anti-white!"

Now, if you're male in a sexist society (and we DO live in a sexist society) then insisting that some anti-sexists are anti-men and that is wrong and we should devote lots of time and energy to how wrong that is - is a bit rich.

That's a great blog post, Beach. It reminds me of the Gavin Beck book we did in Feminist Book Club about the power of fear - which covered noticing when your boundaries are being pushed and not being afraid of being rude for acting on it.

I think your statement about your white privilege is also interesting and I will try and bear that in mind as an example.

I am not claiming it is about me personally, HH. I don't take offence. I am just saying that for some people it is a legitimate concern, given that we are talking about women who may feel hatred as a default position. She wouldn't know me from Adam.

It's Schroedinger's rapist extended to societal level.

And it is extremely rational - it is based on lived experience and being able to engage one's brain and observe the reality of the world one lives in.

In a society where violence against women in all its forms costs the country more than the annual defence budget it is good sense.

I also reserve the right to be offended and angry at domestic violence. It sickens me. For a woman to be fearful of men as her default position is completely understandable if it is all she has known. I am no expert, but I believe it is common that women who experience it while growing up also have similar relationships in adult life. Therefore, hatred/fear/uncertainty on their part is a legitimate feeling, and I would understand if such a person had those feelings towards me if she didn't know me. I don't think rationality comes into play - it is a survival instinct.

"it's nice to be judged on what you do rather than what you are."

Yeah, that would be great. Maybe sometime in the future women will be!

peoplesrepublicofmeow it is entirely rational to fear and hate oppression.

Although women who do so are constantly accused of irrationality, if not insanity.

If for the sake of argument, one removed 'feminist' and 'man hater' from that statement I'd agree with it.

I.e. ( paraphrasing slightly ) I agree with those who want equality. I do not agree with those who want to favour one group over the other.

Fair enough.

Add feminist back into the statement and I'd still agree but question if any feminists actually want female supremacy. ( other than some crack pot ).... and where they'd got that impression from

If I were at a party and heard the phrase... I think I'd say ' well I agree about equality, but I think man hating supremicists , are very rare , extreamist and not repressentive of feminism and the millions of good women who struggle for equality.

Wasn't this all mentioned on R4 Womens Hour last week ?

I would guess the world view of males in the OP's life are informed by a red top and old episodes of Benny Hill.

Men who care what women think of men as a group would do better to fight male violence and patriarchy, than spend time and energy accusing feminists of man hating.

There isn't one unhinged man in the world perpetrating male violence over women. There are millions of men doing this. And they are backed up by power structures, by organised religion, by customs, by etiquette, by traditions, by rituals, by gender roles, by socialization, by society itself. Escaping male violence is impossible in patriarchal society because it is an integral part of society. It is woven into the very fabric of society.

And frankly men who get upset and take it personally that women are frightened by societal level male violence and oppressed by it and live our lives according to it, and that we don't like that, need to have a word with themselves.

I'm white and I get that some people of colour resent me and my privilege and hate what my 'group' has done to them. All I have to say to them is 'you're right - I benefit from white privilege, I benefit from white supremacy, I benefit from white violence, and I accept that it isn't much comfort to you that I personally try not to be racist, that I personally am not violent.

It Isn't About Individuals.

beach
some women who have experienced male violence could have good reason to hate men, maybe thats reasonable, but is it rational?

if you sufferd violence from one unhinged marxist would you then hate all marxists?

but most of all, your not at the receiving end of being pre-judged for being a man so it isnt your battle, so you care less about it.

it's nice to be judged on what you do rather than what you are.

Whatmeworry - because it is a 'gotcha'. And a well known one. And a boring one.

And because it is offensive to women who have experienced extreme male violence and have good reason to have feelings of hate.

And because it fudges the issue that some women have feelings of hate, not because men are men, but because male violence is a constant threat to women in a patriarchal society.

Because it fudges the issue that feelings of hate towards male violence are founded in fear.

Sheesh.

No, I haven't said they don't exist. I have said that there might be some somewhere, even though I have no personal experience of them. Now what?

If I say "Well, yes there may well be feminists who hate men. I've never met one, but I suppose there must be a couple somewhere. Now what?

"I haven't seen it, so therefore it doesn't exist" is never a convincing argument, especially if there is reason to suspect not seeing is aided by hands tightly clamped around the eyes.

OK. If I say "Well, yes there may well be feminists who hate men. I've never met one, but I suppose there must be a couple somewhere."

Now what?