Is feminism all about man hating?

'Sorrry, but I find men are more likely to talk about politics, science, ideas - stuff that interests me.'

That sounds like something my mother might say on a particularly bitter day. She also grew up in Ireland, as did I. The Ireland where she grew up was one where women were pretty much invisible and inaudible. I hear lots of women her age (almost 80) complaining about empty headedness among women, and basically wanting to join the boys' club in preference to chatting about Hello. I always suspected their disdain for the comradeship and chat of other women came from the realisation that women were sidelined in a major way during their formative years, and getting heard at all required speaking a different language about things the oppressing class preferred to discuss together as a way of demonstrating its superiority to its members.

'In fact, the people I know with their children's art up in the office are the men. The women who have kids practically pretend they don't exist. Incase their 'mother' role means they are taken less seriously at work, perhaps.' Yes, that's the sort of thing I have in mind.

Whatmeworry, I think it's absolute balls that women don't talk about politics and art and stuff. Maybe they're just not so desperate to show off what they know as men are. Or maybe you give off the impression that you think they're a bit thick so they don't want to chat with you.

at this Jane Austen vision of the men the dining room discussing politics and the events of the day, the women in the drawing room talking about embroidery and children.....

shrugs maybe it depends where you work.
When I worked in a call centre I found the dreary rounds of big-brother/eastenders/fashion stuff really boring, but it was fairly unisex. My current job interests me and has a lot of people in it who share my interests, and I don't think I've ever heard a woman where I work talk about clothes or their kids or whatever.

In fact, the people I know with their children's art up in the office are the men. The women who have kids practically pretend they don't exist. Incase their 'mother' role means they are taken less seriously at work, perhaps. Which would be sad. Parenting is a huge part of who we are.

Whatmeworry, do you know many women?

Some of my best friends... :o

Sorrry, but I find men are more likely to talk about politics, science, ideas - stuff that interests me. And I like the humour of office banter, its usually good humoured, I really don't see where all this "oppression" comes in. Maybe its because I grew up in Ireland where piss-taking is anational sport.

'We could not imagine a woman taking the mick out of another woman in quite the same way!'

You should move to Ireland. Slagging is an equal opportunity national sport indulged in by all.

Oops, sorry, cross post!

Whqtmeworry- have you ever actually met a woman?

Whatmeworry, do you know many women?

Namechangeguy -- any sort of conversation where members of one sex are excluded detracts from team ethos in a work environment. Excluding women from conversations where any sort of language is used or any sort of topics are discussed really constitutes the formation of an alternative team, the Men's team, or sometimes the Women's team if men are the ones being excluded. In general, a manager should be frowning very sternly on this sort of division.

Using language that is known to be offensive or suspected to be offensive, or discussion of topics that are known or suspected to to be offensive is a way of bonding with the group using the language or discussing the topic. The exclusion of one sex or the other is not done from politeness; it is done from a desire to form a discrete group and the choice of language and topic is deliberate.

Humour is a very tricky area. It can add greatly to your quality of life, but it can also be a weapon.

Someone once said to me that humour/banter is good when it is directed inwards, amongst friends and those you are fond of. It can become a problem when it is directed outwards at people who may not feel a connection with you/the group. If you are sensitive to others and their boundaries then all is good. If you are unaware of the other person's sensibilities, then best keep quiet.

That was my attempt at banter on MN!

NCG, heavens, I AM NOT GETTING AT YOU. I am just trying to discuss this. I am agreeing with you, and then going on to add a point of my own.

namechange repeat the mantra "it's not all about me" and you'll be fine.

I have a sense of humour and like having a laugh. One of the things I've noticed about expat life is that the British sense of humour is very, erm, unique. Now I come back I see why other nationalities find it extremely aggressive and rude. I can socialise with friends and laugh for hours, coming home with sore smile-muscles, without the sort of putting-someone-in-their-place aspect that 'banter' seems to involve. A lot of banter seems to be policing people's expressions of masculinity. "Oh, you've got that kind of car? Well clearly you have small testicles! HAR HAR!" or whatever.

(slight tangent: One of the most convincing arguments for the existence of the patriarchy that I ever heard was someone pointing out all the ways that men denigrate other men for not being 'manly' enough. "If it's so 'natural' that men are this way," she said to me, "why do they have to work so hard at it?" )

Give me office banter over women wittering on at work anyday. Hair and Hello and kids and clothes and what are yiou having for lunch - aaaargh.

Well, that's me put in my place

Good one. My DH always says 'banter' is a euphemism for arseholery.

Aha! Couldn't find it at first, but here you go: an article I read a while back about the tyranny of banter as bullying you can't complain about:

If you like banter you are an idiot

the general attitude is to give as good as you get, cos that's just how it is

I think that's right, and it is part of my problem with it. Some groups create a banter culture (and Hothead I agree with what you say about it) and it then gets forced on others. A lot of the sexism and racism people experience in workplaces comes from just this kind of thing.

Blackcurrants yeah that kind of thing!

Re. the humour: I kind of like the way men banter and take the piss out of each other. I'm aware that with my female friends we do take the mickey but only to a certain extent but would NEVER say anything negative about anyone's appearance but that's probably because women are socialised (with the force of a meteorite) to feel sensitive in that respect.

When I'm with men I always feel they don't get my sense of humour cos it's quite self deprecating but with women I feel more comfortable ........ hmmmm so much to think about ..... you lot are not good for my mid year resolution to pick DS up on time!

Eldrich, I have worked in male-only groups too. The 'banter' is the same but the language is worse - much worse. Nobody would dare mock one of the women's haircuts/outfits though. It isn't seen as the 'done thing'. It can be a bit wearing at times, and it does seem to be the default mode, but the general attitude is to give as good as you get, cos that's just how it is.

I can see how you might see that excluding the women from this fake 'abuse' might be seen as exclusionary or unnecessary, but it seems to stem from politeness, and a recognition that they just might not find it funny. At the root of it all, I think there is more than a little male-on-male competition.

Ah, as soon as I read messy's post but before I'd got down to ncg's the word that popped into my head was banter.

The tyranny of banter is something that infuriates me about some groups of men sometimes. My workplace was very male-dominated when I started, and I just felt imprisoned in the banter sometimes. It is just one way of interacting, but it so often becomes compulsory. I think men often impose banter on women. It is a controlling thing, a means of not taking women seriously (mock and belittle them under the cloak of 'banter') and very often a way of getting women into sexually-tinged conversations they absolutely don't want to have (in my experience).

I remember talking with a woman who said "[this random person] didn't know me from Eve..."

I said, "Not Adam?" and she replied, "Well, it's clear enough that I'm not Adam."

Messy, funny you should mention this, because its something we discussed at work recently. It was centred around the 'banter' that occurs in the workplace, and how we react to each other. We as a group (a 60-40 majority of men) tend to concentrate on sarcasm and poking fun at each other, whether it be clothes, new haircut ('who did that to you? we'll get them back for you' etc), malapropisms etc. We aren't aware that women do this to each other - it appears to be far more complimentary, such as 'love your new hair-do/dress' etc. We could not imagine a woman taking the mick out of another woman in quite the same way!

Now, we may just not be party to it, or there may not be enough women in our office for this to take place, so everything is anecdotal. However, we also noted that the same sorts of exchanges take place on social networks such as twitter and faceybebo, again along gender lines.

Is it something that anyone else would agree/disagree with? I am not sure that I resent women being nicer to each other. I would guess that someone will now pop up with how we are all expected to conform to gender stereotypes of women being the 'nicer' sex, men jostling to be the 'alpha' etc., but I am curious to know if you have noticed this too.