Is feminism all about man hating?

I hate men.

THOSE BASTARDS.

I think 'ShoutyDogmatist' might have to be my new MN name, actually...

I agree with your points Takver, but curious why you think Stoltenberg identifying as a gay man makes it easier for him to be critical of/challenging to other men than say a straight man or a woman. He doesn't speak only to gay men but all men, and even gay men experience male privilege (at the same time as heterosexist oppression of course.)

I agree with your second post - in my experience, those women who've had the "lowest opinion" of men, who've had the least regard for their humanity, have been women who reject the principles of feminism and believe their best interests are served by carving out their own advantageous place within a patriarchal system. They know they won't achieve recognition, status or validation on their merits alone, and feel legitimised in using deception and manipulation to get what they want and need.

Feminists, on the other hand, will at least be honest with men, even where the truths may be painful for them to hear.

Takver said. I agree 100% with the points made by earlier posters - that the real problem is the number of men who hate women, and also that as feminists (in the main) we have a higher opinion of men, since we believe them capable of so much more.

When you say men though are you meaning all men? Your post seems to suggest that you are talking about men as if they are a unit rather many different beings and personalities. Of course we all expect more of men who abuse women or anyone else for that matter. The thing is I actually have a higher opinion of women than men. I think mostly they have more humanity than men but I have known men who are wonderful and wouldn't hurt a fly but I have known women (not many) who thrive on conflict and are not happy unless they are causing trouble. All my life I have tried to not go out of my way to harm anyone so why would you expect any more of me?

Imo feminism is about the ideas that not all men are potential rapists, not all men want to leer at surgically enhanced 18yos, women and men should have equal opportinties which includes in parenting and there should be specialist support for women in difficult situations that arise because they are female.

I agree 100% with the points made by earlier posters - that the real problem is the number of men who hate women, and also that as feminists (in the main) we have a higher opinion of men, since we believe them capable of so much more.

John Stoltenberg is gay, so perhaps there are things he finds easier to say about men than hetero guys would.

I think when people are uncomfortable about something, one way they try to dismiss it is by making ludicrous exaggerations that are easy to attack, rather than addressing the real issues. So, "feminists hate men" but also "If I don't shave my legs I'll look like a gorilla" or "If I don't wear a bra I'll give myself a black eye". Probably we're all guilty of it at times.

But if feminists hate men, who was it, and what did she do or say exactly? I would bet that anyone who makes that accusation wouldn't have any concrete examples and wouldn't have looked carefully enough to find the tiny number of women to whom it might apply.

On the other hand, there are numerous men who've proved by their behaviour that they hate women--some of them already violently dead or in jail, some walking around doing harm. And yet it's a topic that very seldom gets mentioned.

As others have said, no, feminism isn't about man-hating. Fallingoffthefence makes some excellent points both about what it is and why some people mistakenly think that is what it is about.

• Some folks just believe the stereotype of the man hating feminist without questioning. There are similar stereotypes for other people - like that teenagers are all thugs, old people are all senile, single parents are all scroungers, etc. Some folks believe these as well, but that doesn't make them correct.

• Feminists challenge the status quo. Anyone who does that will ruffle feathers and those who are afraid of change will (not surprisingly) sometimes say nasty, untrue things about those who challenge conventions.

• Those who feel they stand to lose something if we have a more fair and just society are unlikely to heap praise on feminists, either. They may believe that for women to gain more rights, men will have to give some up. They may rationalise that the current situation is just the "natural order" of things, or even deny that they have any privilege to start with. So, they'll hardly heap praise on a movement that wants to change the structures, traditions and institutions based on patriarchy and male privilege.

So, some say feminists are man haters out of ignorance - genuinely not knowing that this isn't true. Others will do so deliberately because they oppose what feminists believe in.

There are a couple of other key points from fallingoff's posts that I wanted to pick out.

• I like the analogy of the environmental movement, where there are some environmentalists who really seem to hate humanity and show this through what they say and do. That doesn't mean their views are representative of all people who call themselves environmentalists. Same goes for feminists.

• The quote from Andrea Dworkin sums up the position of feminists nicely - they believe in the humanity of men. Her life partner (whom she married a few years before she died,) John Stoltenberg, pulls no punches when he says that men should demonstrate their loyalty to humanity over their loyalty to manhood. Feminism is not about hatred, violence or superiority but about recognising and valuing the humanity in all people, regardless of sex.

I think being angry at the status quo is not the same as hating men. But the two can easily be confused by an uncritical observer, or someone who wilfully wants to muddy the waters

I agree with the first point, but I do think there are those who use Feminist analysis - and IMO mainly Rad Fem analysis - to cover man-hating beliefs, and that tars all Feminism with a bad name too often for my liking.

Umm, no, I certainly wouldn't presume to call them an idiot

I think we're all in agreement that anyone who equates feminism with hating men is an idiot.

Are there individual women who hate men? Maybe.

If so, do any percentage of them self-identify as feminists? Maybe.

Is feminism all about man-hating? No.

I don't know if I qualify as a feminist, but I never hated men as a whole, I always said that I used to choose the wrong ones :D

Anyway, I met a couple of women who sounded quite hateful of men but I think the majority of feminists don't hate men at all.

I think being angry at the status quo is not the same as hating men. But the two can easily be confused by an uncritical observer, or someone who wilfully wants to muddy the waters

Well yes, or they could indeed hate men.

I think being angry at the status quo is not the same as hating men. But the two can easily be confused by an uncritical observer, or someone who wilfully wants to muddy the waters.

A lot of the men talked about on Mn are scum though - especially in relationships...
i read out the posts and DH says 'She should leave him, he's a twat'....

he likes it because he looks brilliant by comparison.

I think it's unfair to refer to previous posters Mr Gin and state that they hate men. It's not as clear cut as that and to quote of out context gives that more impact than was intended

Well to be fair I did say they gave the 'impression' of hating men'. And it wasn't just one isolated incident. It was a year of observation and seeing comment after comment describing men, as a collective, in pretty unsavoury terms.

I don't think it was a feminist stance at all, I think it was down to personality, and going out on a limb I'd hazard a guess , personal bad experience.

I know it's contentious, and I don't really want to get in a convo about it, but the mantra ' all men are potential rapists ' is pretty offensive to a lot of people.

And I can see how if you are on the more radical end, and submerse yourself in radical theory about the patriarchy, and man's entitlement and crimes, you are probably going to think less of men as a collective.

I think Othehugemantee has got it right - all political movements (as with society in general) include some people who don't like other people very much. Sometimes they use their politics as cover to justify themselves

I've met some environmental activists for example who don't seem to like people very much and talk at length about how great the world would be if there werent any people in it. However they are not representative of the views of environmentalists generally. it's just that environmental politics give cover for their views.

It would be stupid to say that no feminists hate men because some feminists are bound to. The point is that hating men is not central to feminism.

I also think that the association of radical feminism with man hating is a myth - people seem to think radical means 'more extreame' so when someone talks about those nasty extreme feminists who hate men they somehow assume that this is what radical feminism is. But the hating men thing is about personality, not politics. As I said before a great many non feminist women seem to hate men, and most of the radical feminists I know don't hate men, even those who chose to work with women only.

It's worth repeating the great Andrea Dworkin quote 'Have you ever wondered why we are not in armed combat with you. It is not because there's a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence. here

The best example of man-hating I can think of is those people who are forever telling women not to go out alone, or drink too much, or wear miniskirts, with the implication that all men are potential rapists. I'd call that man-hating. I have rapists, sure, but I am fully aware that most men are not rapists, and their reaction to a drunk woman on her own would most likely be to leave her alone.

i think it's a sign of progress that whilst my Dad is also a feminist, he could on occasion say something like 'that's a womans job' about cleaning and then feel really stupid, knowing that kind of thing isn't rationally defensible..

to DH, one generation on, who just doesn't notice that the kitchen floor is dirty for weeks and if questioned why, might admit he thought it was my job.

less cognitive dissonance from one generation to the next.

My son may even get as far as to recognise when a thing is dirty, and clean it himself without asking a woman first.....

What HugeManatee said.
I've never met a feminist who hated men. But if anyone were to accuse me of being a man-hater, I'd say I'd rather be one of those than a mug. Which is what the complainers about man-hatred would really prefer me to be, I think.

I don't think any aspect of feminisim hates men, but that some individual women do. I think that view merits some sympathy as often women who are accused of man-hating are either saying something unpopular, have been seriously hurt by a man which is then reinforced by a system that favours them or are exposed daily to some horrific treatment of women.

I can see that that affects their view but I can't think of anyone I've ever come across who actually hates not just individual men but also men as a collective.

I think it's unfair to refer to previous posters Mr Gin and state that they hate men. It's not as clear cut as that and to quote of out context gives that more impact than was intended.

What we post about the theory of feminism isn't necessarily the same approach we take in real life, but it's just so damn difficult to challenge every stereotype or injustice everytime. AIBU being a case in point.

I think if someone were ever to do a Spotter's Guide to Radical Politics you'd see some personality types appearing in all kinds of movements: The Misanthrope and The Shouty Dogmatist for example. It's not unique to feminism, so don't let anyone suggest to you it is

Oh, yeah, some people are just bastards

That is all very true I think SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed. I remember a male poster in a forum years ago who used to say "women are wired wrong". I used to think that what he meant was that he didn't like women because they didn't meet some idealistic view he had of them. He didn't seem to like other men much either which also fits your theory.