Is feminism all about man hating?

Wasn't derailed by any feminist.

Hester, in America at least, there are probably as many people who've heard of Elizabeth Cady Stanton as have heard of Gandhi (and if it wasn't for the film with Ben Kingsley, even fewer would know :))

There's a statue of her, with other "mothers of feminism," Susan B Anthony and Lucretia Mott, in the crypt of the US Congress building.

Although my schooling was way back in the 70's, even then we learnt something about her in history and it's my understanding that feminists involved in the Seneca Falls conference and the Suffragettes have featured more prominently in school history classes in the US in the past couple decades.

But her criticism of the abolitionist movement, her overtly racist comments about the need to extend the vote to "women of good class and education" to counterbalance all the poor, illiterate black men who gained the vote after the Civil War, and her reluctance to admit African American women to the women's rights movement aren't usually mentioned.

Lucretia Mott, her contemporary but almost a generation older, while sharing Stanton's drive for female emancipation was highly critical of her for her racist and classist views. Mott and Sojourner Truth were perhaps some of the earliest examples of feminists with an intersectional perspective. Cool!

However, I have to take issue with your statement, "I also think that culturally we've made greater steps to examine and redress racism in our history whereas sexism is largely written off as 'just the way it was'."

This is the internetz, I don't know you or whether you are a woman of colour or not. But, I'll say from my own perspective, as someone who is visibly white, I don't believe it is for ME to pronounce whether there have been sufficient steps taken to "examine and redress racism in our history" our contemporary society, for that matter. I'm not affected by racism every day, so it's easy peasy for me to say that racism has largely been "sorted," but that would be me speaking from my privilege, not reality.

And, as an observer, I don't believe we've taken nearly enough steps to address institutionalised racism in our society, or sexism or other forms of oppression that maintain what I refer to as kyriarchal hegemony.

(Rummages in cupboard for tee shirt with "Lucretia Mott Rocks" on one side and "Sojourner Truth is my Idol" on the other.) :)

People don't, on the whole, unless they are white supremacist arseholes, whine about ethnic minority activism as being white-hating. Even though there are a percentage of non-white activists who are, well, you know, fucking dubious nasty little bastards; think of the raging anti-semitism of the Nation Of Islam lot. Not to mention their misogyny. Some people seem to confuse justifiable anger, with the class privilege of the dominant group, with hatred of the members of that group. Unfortunately some people in the oppressed group do hate the oppressors to the point of blind bigotry and spite.

I'm picking my daughter up tomorrow. She's three and a half and lovely. I'm going to take her out in to the woods and look at bugs, and she's going to ride me around home like a horsey until my knees wear out.

We might make cupcakes.

As you were.

It's always in the interests of anti feminists to derali constructive discussion.

Is it really Whatmeworry?

Are we going to go any lower?

Fair enough, I just think its a bit unrealistic to expect such a big ruck to leave no trace and felt it a bit unfair to apparently chastise Beachcomber when it did seem a big deal to you as well. However, you're right about it springing up in other threads, apologies OP. I vowed to leave it be but have found the snide references to Dittany and use of rad-fem like its an insult provocative, and I neither know Dittany nor identify as a rad-fem. Backto sitting on my hands.

Olivia - , try to smell them as a diversion from the gin cupboard...

Sure, Hester. I gave my opinion. Several times.

What's your point? I'd just like to use this section without seeing a fight every time I post.

Anyway let's try to get back to the original thread.

It kicks off in all sorts of groups and spaces, though, not just feminist ones.

Beachcomber: TO be fair I think there was probably a lot going on that not everyone knew about - I certainly didn't as the only fellow MNers I 'know' on Facebook are ones I've met in the flesh. But I have seen this sort of thing kick off in and around feminist groups (and all activist groups) before. Some people have some good insights and some radical ideas, they become a bit of a lightning-rod for discussion and then it gets to beall about them and they love it and they feed it and then it bites them on the arse.

You were pretty active and vocal in those threads, YR. Having an opinion about this kind of thing isn't juvenile.

Kritiq I think one of the main differences between Gandhi and Elizabeth Cady Stanton is that just about everyone has heard of Gandhi, and think they know who he was. It's going to be more of an eyeopener. I also think that culturally we've made greater steps to examine and redress racism in our history whereas sexism is largely written off as 'just the way it was'.

Oh well, that's me told YRC.

Contrary to what you may think, neither do I.

I'm in it for the feminist analysis, the female solidarity, the laughs, the fantastic links, the exploration.

I'm not in it for the character assassinations.

Guess TeiTetua's gone to the pub and left me in the middle of the brawl here.

Yes there is more to it that meets the eye. Mostly weird FB groups that, as far as I can see, none of the posters who've been maintaining peace and quiet and thoughtful discussion here for the entire week have been privy to those.

We have about 200000 new sections; why one of those isn't just "have a massive go at people and bring up millions of shit about previous threads and go on and on and on" section, I don't know.

yellow I think I need to cut n' paste that post, for my own and other's benefit.

SGB, I respect you and I like you.

We don't always agree, and that is fine (I hope, it certainly is with me). I'm not sure it started where you say it did. I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

I don't think feminism is all about man-hating, of course not. But I do think some feminists put too much stock into a 'gender wars' narrative that doesn't help anyone.

YRC, would you sit on your hands after the goading we have seen here? If it were you I mean? I hate scapegoating that says 'oh, but I didn't mean you'. It is as destructive, as it is predictable.

I really wanted to step away from this section and give a bit of space to less regular posters.

It is sort of hard to keep one's peace on this sort of thing though. I'm sorry for participating in the derail. Really I am.