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Original poster

Surnames - is this a step forward or the state taking on the role of domineering husband?

172 replies

TouTou · 02/07/2012 17:07

Just interested in your thoughts really. As feminists, like. (Grin)

I moved to Quebec and have been forced (yes, literally forced) to take back my maiden name. I am not allowed to take on my DHs name (which I've had for several years,) in the interest of 'equality'.

I consider myself a feminist. It took my 10 years for me to finally marry DH and after that I kept my own name for 3 years.

When we had DCs I wanted the same name as them, (I've worked in healthcare and have seen several times problems with obtaining consent caused by family members having different names). My DH, again, felt really strongly that he wanted them to have his name as he is the only son of an only son (ie, the last of his name) and I have siblings to carry on my name. Also, he is very attached to his family and I don't really respect my Dfather, so again, not didn't feel as passionately about it as he did. It took me a while and much chin stroking, but in the end we all became 'The TouTous'.

In other words, I wasn't forced into having his name, but came about taking it through long consideration.

But, because Quebec is very much an 'equal' province, women are not allowed to do this. And because DCs still seem to take on the fathers name (just shows you can't grow equailty in a day), most of the DCs have different names to their mums.
I'm pissed off about having a different name from my DCs (again, it causes problems at border crossings with the USA etc) and the state having a paternalistic attitude that women are so put upon that government should tell them what is best for them.

What are your thoughts on this?

OP posts:
differentnameforthis · 04/07/2012 10:54

Are they forcing men to take a specific name? Probably not, so not really equality is it? Because they are forcing something onto the women that (in your case at least) they aren't happy with. And I bet you aren't the only one.

I don't like being forced into anything & if someone was making me take a name & not dh, it wouldn't feel very equal to me.

Bonsoir · 04/07/2012 10:50

My sister changed her name to her DH's on marriage. A few years later she changed back to her maiden name!

Blu · 04/07/2012 10:40

MargeryKemp - IMO because men see themselves as the core structure of a patriarchal dynasty - family trees tend to chart the lineage of the male line, they like to see thier genetics stamped on their children with the name as the label for those genetics. Names are part of a person's identity and they don't like to see their identity changed to the label given by a woman. because of course, a woman's status is still considered, culturally, to be lower.

It's hard to let go of power and influence. Women have grown up used to the idea that they won't keep their name for life, so it's easy to run with the status quo.

When I was a llittle girl I was excited about changing my name, it seemed boring to have the sam name throughout your life. As an adult, with my name part of my identity and having taken to feminism in my early teens, I felt very differently.

sophieontheinternet · 04/07/2012 10:19

It must make bureaucracy easier for them, though! I remember how surprised I was when I changed my name on marriage and found there was no one-form-to-do-it-all, but that I had to write to the bank, the insurance people, everyone...

Ephiny · 04/07/2012 10:15

I think often people just go with what they see as the normal/default option, because it doesn't require them to really think about it! Even if neither party has strong feelings on the naming issue, the fact that it's usual/traditional to pass on the man's name means there's an 'invisible' pressure pushing people that way unless they make an active decision to do otherwise.

It's not always the case though. I know two couples, friends of ours, who've kept their own names on marriage and given double-barrelled names to their children. DH and I have both kept our names, and we plan to pass on mine if/when we have a child (planning is not doing, I know, but I don't see why it shouldn't happen!). Using my name is DH's suggestion, for various reasons, none of them anything to do with 'self-loathing'.

Bonsoir · 04/07/2012 10:08

MargeryKemp - one of my female cousins had a great maiden name she didn't want to lose. When she married and had DC, the whole family (inc her DH) changed its name to Hersurname-Hissurname. My DD, like several of her cousins of her generation, has Hissurname-Hersurname as her own surname. There is a lot of it about!

Margerykemp · 04/07/2012 09:12

Oh and here's the definition of cognitive dissonance for the poster who asked en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Margerykemp · 04/07/2012 09:11

So why is no one asking the question - why do men 'like' their names more and insist upon their surnames being the same as their DCs?

Surely logic would dictate that there should be as many men as women who don't like their surnames? But is that ever a reason for them to change their name when they get married or to give their DCs the mother's surname?

Naming is a big part of identity and it seems like part of this is the self- loathing lots of women have of themselves and their identity, much like body dystrophic disorder.

Bonsoir · 04/07/2012 08:01

Every jurisdiction has its own rules on surnames and England is particularly flexible. It is not unusual, across the globe, for women to be required to carry on using their maiden name throughout their lives and it is not even a recent feminist practice in many countries.

Thumbwitch · 04/07/2012 07:57

Toutou - if you have to change your name back to your maiden name, what do you do about your passport? Do you have to change that back as well? Confused

rosy71 · 04/07/2012 07:53

I can't really see any problem with insisting people keep the name they were born with. Sounds quite sensible to me, but then I've never quite got the whole name changing thing anyway. People only have a thing about wanting families to all have the same surname because, culturally, that's what we do. Other cultures do things differently.

I do think it's unreasonalbe to expect you to change your name back if you've changed you name in a different country. I can't see the point there.

With regard to children's names, my boys have their father's surname and being different doesn't bother me. However, if I could go back, I'd probably insist on my name being in there somewhere.

nooka · 04/07/2012 06:18

I'm fascinated by this as we have emigrated to BC (well almost, just waiting for PR). dh and I have been married for 16 years, including almost 4 in BC. If we moved to Quebec would I really have to go back to my maiden name? My career is totally established in my married name so it would be a big problem (and like the OP I prefer my family unit to have the same name) also I agree that dh and I would almost certainly have made different choices with our children (although not to double barrel as our surnames are very similar and I think it would sound ridiculous). I picked dh's name because it was more interesting than mine, plus as I have a very unusual first name I've never been very attached to my surname which I rarely use.

chibi · 04/07/2012 06:14

They have to be defensive about language, they are a tiny franco island in an anglophone sea - it would be tremendously easy for it to be overwhemed in a way that could never happen with english

Thumbwitch · 04/07/2012 06:05

Same thing happened to a friend of mine when she moved to Italy with her Italian husband and their DSs. She had to revert to her maiden name, they all kept the "family" name. Most offputting for her.

sashh · 04/07/2012 05:21

I would have thought wanting to have the same name as your children would be a good reason. Plus you haveing used it for years. You could add in 'I don't want my father's name'.

I think Iceland has it the right way.

It's not just Canada though - in the US the name you have when you qualify as a Dr or Lawyer is the name you have to use to practice under.

Original poster
TouTou · 03/07/2012 22:21

But then, OTOH, there are some nice things about Quebec too. The weather's pretty damn nice at the moment! Grin

I think they are a little bit like that here TBH - rigid on 'when in Rome'. They are pretty defensive about any English language things (whole other topic) and insist that you speak decent French - none of this translating websites into English, Urdu and Polish. But, at the same time they run AMAZING french programmes for learning the language. So although their stance of 'speak French or else tough' seems harsh, I think it is pretty well thought out.

OP posts:
Original poster
TouTou · 03/07/2012 22:17

I think there are some ways of changing it - if you are married outside of quebec for quite a long time, if your name is ridiculous (and honestly, my maiden name isn't but it is a bit!), I think if you are in danger... etc.

But having a name from another country that is legally recognised from that other country - no.

OP posts:
HopeForTheBest · 03/07/2012 22:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on request of its author.

Original poster
TouTou · 03/07/2012 21:46

@Bonnie - I agree. I loathe Mrs and Ms sounds like you're eating a wasp but I like it better because of the ambiguity. (hence why I'm delighted with Dr!)

Hopefor -yep, it's already changed on most things that I had no choice over - on my drivers licence, social security, health number etc. My passport and all my other documents are in my married name.

As said, I think the fact that I debated in, what I felt, was a rational way, only to have my name taken away from me, (which I think is a pretty massive deal, in a petty wayConfused) is a bit paternalistic.

Perhaps it's that I've been forced to change my name. Had I lived here before marriage, I think I would have accepted it, no problems. But as I had no choice, that's what bugs me.

OP posts:
Leftwingharpie · 03/07/2012 21:43

Bonnie I always intended to continue to use Ms and then I got seduced by Mrs!

TouTou thanks for telling us about this and your experience of it. I definitely don't think it's a petty little thing.

HopeForTheBest · 03/07/2012 21:38

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on request of its author.

EclecticShock · 03/07/2012 21:31

I think your name should be your choice.

BonnieBumble · 03/07/2012 20:34

Although I took dh's surname I didn't take the title Mrs I use Ms because I don't see why my marital status is relevant. I know that this rule applies equally but I can't help but think it's unfair - if I want to change my name I bloody well will do! Why should I have to be lumbered with a name on my birth certificate that has no relevance to my identity? Angry

Original poster
TouTou · 03/07/2012 19:40

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

I think the name changing thing is a petty little thing for me to be concerned about. But I really did want the same name as my DCs as I have, in my medical career, found problems in the past with things like appointments/consent etc with parents who have different names - enough that I felt that it was important for me. It's the retrospective part for me of changing it that I don't like. Now, I am forced not to have the same name as them.

My own maiden name sounds like someone is spitting their teeth across the room. I definitely wouldn't want to double-barrell it for my own DCs! My DHs name is more common - a bit like Evans. A simple, easy nice name. So it was purely this that made me choose for DCs to have this name and not my own. Apart from that, DHs family is very dear to me and i was proud to take their name (in the end after not wanting it for the first couple of years Blush)

As for being Mrs, I have annhialated that problem by having the title of Dr! Grin

I am very much a feminist, and feel that it is a bit high handed of the govt here to decide for women what their name should be. as said, I almost prefer the Swiss way which is to make a family all have the same name. Had that been the case, I still would have chosen DHs name (due to the fact that you don't have to spell it 18 times on the phone, only to find it's still spelled wrong)

I do think that the history of Quebec, and the shunning of the church and marriage as a consequence is a huge part of this, and pretty interesting. I'm also Canadian/British, so it's double irritating for me that the rest of Canada would let me have a choice. You're right Bue, it gets right up other Canadians noses to have to change their names here, not to mention the other immigrants. I always found it amazing that people accepted their names had to be anglicised when they arrived at Ellis Island as immigrants to the USA, and that's a little bit what has happened to me. (But I'm sure someone can tumble that analogy right off it's box! Give it a try.)

OP posts:
Bue · 03/07/2012 19:36

Actually, I'm not sure if it has been pointed out here, but this is a law that applies equally to everyone, regardless of marital status. The only allowable reasons for a name change in Quebec are something like it's impossible to spell/pronounce or may lead to mocking. So while I think this law did originate with feminists in the 70s, it does apply equally to all and isn't just about married women. I don't really see a problem with it.