Motherhood - I need some analytical help please

Glasgowean -

Good question!

My thoughts on this, both from reading and experience of life (my own and friends) is that there is a fairly big slug of nature driving things in the early years, but with unexpected impacts.

From a evolutionary point of view women have a much bigger investment in a child they have just gestated for 9 months and which may be one of 1O they ever give birth to. For a man they could (if they go the Ghengis Kahn route) have 100s of children in their lifetime, so any one child (which may not be theirs) is worth a smaller "bet" of resources than for a woman.

Of course we don't live like that any more, or think like that, but I don't think we can ignore those drivers (because they trip us up)

The point is not to say that natural must be good and women should be defined by motherhood.

But I think women (in general, on average) are more willing to put everything else on hold when their children are young (whether that means seeking status at work or running around looking for new sexual partners) than men, in general, are.

Then the structures and institutions and assumptions we have end up translating that marginal difference lasting maybe 3 years into a huge absolute difference lasting for 20+.

E.g. - say a woman is 60% willing to give up work when their child is young, and the bloke is 40% willing, they ought to split the time along those lines, but in practice maternity leave and cultural expectations means her work will take 100% of the knock.

After 2-3 rounds of this this her marginal advantage at parenting has been replaced by an absolute advantage of knowledge and skills, whereas his marginal greater engagement with the public world has been translated into an an absolute advantage of experience and earning power. At this point it is hard to switch to more equal parenthood even if they both want to. And social expectations don't encourage it.

My take-away from all of this is that there should be more encouragement for flexible parenthood splits from the start, and more on-ramps to help women get back to education, work and public life after time out. Plus the general expectation in workplaces that both men and women are active parents.

... But also think somehow as women and girls we have to be encouraged to think clearly about what we are giving up if they take on being the senior parent from the start. (is that "the motherhood myth"?)

Isn't it socially unacceptable to ever admit you wished you never had children? Or that, if you were to make the choice over again, you would chose not to have the child/children? Or that parenthood doesn't suit you? I think this applies to men as well as women.

Dh and I have had this discussion before when at uni: he says all the new fathers he knows would always say: 'oh, being a dad is great' 'i just love being a dad' etc and he was surprised none of them dwelt on the negatives.

Quite a few of my close friends are childfree, in most cases by choice, so I'm quite comfortable with the childfree worldview. (I use 'childfree' rather than 'childless; because I think the latter has more connotations of infertility). I used to favour the childfree life myself, until getting unexpectedly PG and having DS. I'm not sorry I have him, but nor do I think my childfree friends are 'missing out' or will regret having no children themselves: they are not me and I am not them and I respect their choices. What I do think is sad is the way some people have children either because they think, well, it's just what you do when you grow up, or because they are pressured into doing so by family and friends - and then they find out that they are not natural parents, that they hate parenthood and regret having had the children. That's horrible for all concerned. Some people really aren't parent material; they have another passion in their lives (whether that's art, sport, travel, science, whatever) and should stick to doing that.

I do not have and never want to have children. And I don't believe that women are "naturally" caring. I believe that it is socially acceptable for a man NOT to care about raising children and so many of them don't.

I have been told so often that I'll change my mind about kids, my partner never has. In fact, children are rarely mentioned to him. I believe that this kind of "baby" talk that women are subjected to encourages them into having children.

Mommy Myth: The Idealization of Motherhood and How it Has Undermined All Women This book was about the same subject and interesting - you may want to consider it.

I think our society is very uncomfortable with anyone or anything that does not fit into a category which the vast majority of people fit into. We have herd mentality and I suppose there must be lots of evolutionary reasons for that. The vast majority of women do want to have children and do enjoy most of it so any woman who does not fit into that category is treated with incredulity and suspicion. Similarly most people do want to meet a partner and live in a loving realtionship and those who don't are equally looked at with disbelief and suspicion. Some of this is partly caused by our intense subjectivity; we have enjoyed being parents/ finding love ourselves and feel genuinely that those who don't will miss out on this - we can't beleive that others are that different to ourselves! However, I think it is true that women who do not fit the norm are generally treated with more disbeleif, suspicion etc than men. Surely this must be because of reproduction. Reproduction of the species, the most important thing ultimately, is largely under the control of women and so women are therefore subject to greater 'control' by the herd mentality.

I think there is a conflict amongst feminists on this OP.

Some feminists focus heavily on the fact that only women can be pregnant, give birth and breastfeed and say that we need special recognition and rights to protect that role, eg enhanced maternity leave etc. This can tip over sometimes into the "cult of the mother" that you describe.

Other feminists say that the view that mothers are more natural parents is wrong, and this view has actually harmed women's rights over the years. They say that what we need is men to take a more equal role in the home and with children.

Look, doting 'natural' motherhood is a very modern phenomenon - it really only happened around the time of the industrial revolution, and progressed due to the availability of contraception and the huge, huge leaps in medical science that reduced infant mortality. Women used to have loads and loads of babies and expect about half of them to die in infancy so they tended not to get too attached to them; children were also perceived as economic units, not beloved people. A few hundred years ago, it was very much the done thing to use a wet nurse if you could possibly afford to; the prevailing viewpoint was that BFing was boring and a reasonably well-off woman could find better uses for her time; wet nurses were poor women (who sometimes neglected their own babies in order to feed the ones they were being paid to feed).

Devaluing of childrearing/homemaking is a big factor.
Heard Danish Minister for Children on the radio yesterday and she didn't seem to put any store at all in the parental role in childrearing. She said it was bad for the child to be raised at home, even from when they are really little.
While I admire the way they throw lots of money at high quality childcare,and the way women are not discriminated against in the workplace there, I am uncomfortable to say the least.
I don't see this as feminist or even actually about equality. It is a huge denigration of family life. It seems to me to be more about using your well-educated populace in a way that best serves the economy i.e. in the workforce rather than letting them "waste" themselves.

Am I gone off the point?

My ideal? Hard to say. Different for everyone But I am operating my own ideal here at home. Male and female place high value on childrearing. Male and female partner share the childrearing, homemaking and paid work, not equally necessarily, but according to need/economic necessity.
I didn't do any paid work for 2 years, but now do more of that than DH. We share the homemaking and childrearing between us. It will change again. And again.

I also think it depends on your aspirations dhs has always been to get married, have a family and babies and thats all he has ever really wanted to do.Many men I know are like that you always see stories about men not wanting to settle down but I know loads that love having kids.

Lebfg -Dh is looking after our 2 tonight one is breast fed but he is looking after them all night and I am going drinking.In the morning dh is meeting the lads and they bring their babies and they all go to breakfast together.They do it often and the dads are aged 19 to 29. If you go to our town loads of men are out on their own or with a group of male friends with their kids.

'I am always struck as well by how women who really struggle after having a baby are often told they have PND caused by a chemical imbalance. i have spoken to women who have been told this who have said I don't have PND, I just regret having my baby, I didn't realise it would be like this'

That's really interesting EatsBrains - I'd never thought of that before. There is still a massive cultural expectation that all women, even those who are unsure about motherhood before it happens, will fall totally in love with their baby and it will become the most wonderful experience of their entire lives. That has always sounded like utter tosh to me. I don't doubt that there are men and women who bitterly regret having children but I hadn't thought about it in the context of PND before.

OP, I'm childfree and I have heard all the rubbish your friends were spouting many times. I have been called 'selfish', told that I would definitely regret my decision, that I was bound to 'change my mind'. I've even had someone wish an unwanted pregnancy on me. I have no idea why my choice winds some people up so very much - I suspect some of it is to do with this mad theory that every woman wants children and being a mother is a fundamental part of being a 'whole woman'. But I have wondered why some people are so insecure about their own choice to become a parent that they feel threatened by my choice not to be one.

And it's totally different for men - they don't get anything like the same pressure to be a parent. And for the record, with the very obvious exceptions of giving birth and breastfeeding, I don't believe that there is a single thing that mothers can do better than fathers, just because they are women. Fathers can parent just as fully as mothers - it just takes hard work and an open mind and a willingness to learn - just like it does for mothers!

That's encouraging molly. I live in rural france which is exceptionally old-fashioned. It is also a very poor region. Men, young and old alike, NEVER go in the kitchen, never do household chores and do NONE of the childrearing. I find this very difficult to come to terms with (understatement). I have fallen into this local pattern a bit as it's DH's work that took off, not mine. Good lil housewife me!

In rl men do as much as women.We are not in a career type area though so men are out and about on their own with babies and young children all the time. I think its different in posh areas where the man works in a job he is away all the time and the woman stays at home.Those men dont seem very hands on but I totally disagree with men not being paternal as here loads of men want children really young and look after them.

Clearly, if a baby is to be bf, only the mother CAN do it.

I have frequently felt people judged me for not wanting children (I actively DIDN'T but changed heart at 33 years!). Why, I wonder? I guess it is a society level imperative to ensure the next generation are being produced. I live in France and there is a lot of national pride that the birth rate is one of the highest in the EU and I see it day-to-day how people expect couples to have children as soon as they marry etc. I see this as a society-driven characteristic.

Hi OP, thanks for asking this, as it's something I have been struggling a lot with over the last few months for some reason (children past the baby stage, and my status as 'mum' just starting to sink in....particularly as I've had to give up my 'career' as it wasn't compatible with family life - which has caused a lot of soul-searching....)

I think about this constantly. I think I know what you are asking/trying to say. I don't know what the answer is though.

There's a very interesting article in the Atlantic this month that some of you may be interested in - www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/why-women-still-can-8217-t-have-it-all/9020/

Asks a lot of the same questions (and doesn't manage to answer many/most of them but a good discussion)

I struggle particularly with this as I was raised by a 'feminist' mother who worked full time and put a high priority on her career. Frankly, I'm not sure it was the best thing for us. So I often find myself overcompensating with my own DC's and am not sure that's doing them many favours either....

Am rambling. But grateful for the discussion.

Has the patriarchy picked up what is a natural phenomena and decided to run with it thus continuing that idea? Interesting dialectic.

Women are naturally mothers only because mothers are naturally always women. Biology dictates that we are mothers which is why the birth of the patriarchy seems to have came about because only women could do reproductive labour. A division of labour (fair at the time) was for men to be engaged in other forms of labour. It is evolutionary and historical because it is rooted in survival and procreation of the species.

What is problematic I think is the value we attach to motherhood once we have clear division of labour. Liberal feminism speaks of childcare and enacting laws that further women's rights in paid employment but seems to overlook the fact that this further devalues domestic labour and mothering.

Are you in the UK OP? Here in the UK I really don't see people seeing that they should be perfect mothers and all-consumed by it.

do we overstate the needs of children
No, if anything children's needs are understated in general. The fashion is for personal freedom and "taming" the child so you can get on with your own life.
Perhaps as a way of coping of industrial society with working parents, no extended family, no support etc

understate the abilities of men to carve out a meaningful niche in society
Men's abilities vis a vis child rearing are not valued enough, and there is an imbalance in child-rearing between man/woman.

does the patriarchy do this to diminish women and fool them into thinking it?s the natural order ?
Maybe, probably consciously way back when, and subconsciously now.

Abortion is about many more things than just the mother's body. I am pro choice but it is more complex than saying one's rights trumps another's.

I really love this argument which runs along the line of 'because x is natural, it's right to do it'. So much of parenting advice stems from this as does a lot of morality.

We are a product of our evolutionary history, but we have the luxury of living in a society with choices available.

Plus, I personally believe that men have a great, and often poorly tapped (perhaps because of socially conditioning?) caring/maternal side. I think I read this first in the 'continuum concept' (though I thought a lot of that was bunkum btw) and it rang really true.

Mini - I can see where you are coming from and I can see taht argument being used to try and take women's rightsaway. But there is a diference between the mother's body and the child. Contraception and abortion are about the mother's body.