How do Radfems propose to tear down the patriarchy?

Glasgow - I think there is a lot to be said for picking your battles. i do tend to avoid AIBU, but if I think someone is being flamed unjustly i will sometimes post responses and sometimes just pm the OP.

In terms of changing people's views though around basic feminism - which is what that is, better to do it where people may listen to you. In threads that are basically a bun fight, everyone gets so irate that nobody listens. If you post on those threads, I think it is to let the OP know they are not alone and someone agrees with them. And that can be useful. But otherwise, I would leave it alone.

This is not a RadFem position by the way, just mine.

Aye, that's the one.

I'm fascinated and somewhat disheartened by some of the responses. I think this is one of the stumbling blocks that all feminists face but am interested in the different approaches that could be taken

I agree with you that it is a good starting point for a debate in theory. In practice no-one will listen to you and you will be accused of shit stirring. I agree with the OP of the thread and I don't think it is shit stirring at all to post that thread. Haven't read the comments at all, but I can guess what they are.

If you want to support the OP would probably be better to pm her?

Oh you mean the one about it being bad for women to pack their male partner's suitcase?

suitcases

It's either spanking or suitcases I think

What is the AIBU thread. Hard to comment without knowing the issue

Ok, so can I just check that we agree on somethings then ?

There just happens to be an AIBU thread which I would see as something that I should be contributing to but I suspect that I would be absolutely battered with shrieks of 'militant feminist'. The thread in question is debating a minor point but one that I think underlies the whole 'women as antifeminists' in failing to see that by accomodating their male partners they are perpetuating the inequality.

The OP is seen as inflammatory whereas I would see it an an 'in' to discuss the bigger picture behind it.

What would the radfem view be to jump in jump in or is it too minor a point when there are major issues to be contending with ?

Seriously don't wish to start a bunfight in AIBU but interested to see a radfem view on the 'small stuff'

Now if I'd known that you were into baby eating Eats, I'd convert to radfem in an instant.

Such cute little peachy limbs - I miss having a little one to nibble on

LimeLeaf - Has Basil explained to you about the baby eating yet? Only male babies of course.

OK, so I don't have to shave my head, don't have to leave my family, don't have to wear a mao suit and don't have to live in a single sex commune. Phew!

All right I'll read some more.

Yes, ComradeJing I get what you're saying about about men and women being disproportionately rich / poor.

Under UK law, only men can be rapists. Therefore men rape. This does not mean that every man rapes or that your husband is a rapist but men, generally, as a class, are rapists.

Oh, god, no! It means rapists are men. Not the other way around. Rapists as a class are men, not the other way round! The class of men contains rapists.

I'm definitely going for a rest now, Jing; if you need to reply, I'm not ignoring you.

Going back to Caramel's point, I think Consumerism is important but only in so far as how it relates to how we create the commodity to be consumed. This for me ties in with my historical materialist way of looking at history. If patriarchy came about as a result of the social relations necessary to our survival including reproduction and all forms of production, then this is a history we share with men. The capitalist means of production is another mechanism by which patriarchy then exerts power. However it means that capitalism uses patriarchy to exert power over women too. Plus of course there are all sorts of concerns about environmental degradation.

welcoming people by accommodating. I can't type. Sorry.

LimeLeaf I don't know if you identify as a feminist at the moment but I'd hope firstly that any feminist of any flavour would wish to bring you over to the dark side into feminism in general before you decided (and you may not want to label yourself) what flavour of feminist you were. :)

I do not believe that radfems - certainly none on MN - would think that a reasonable plan for the future is to make women remove themselves from those they love. Separatism, as I understand it, is about choosing to remove yourself from the patriarchy as much as you are able to. It isn't about someone dragging you away from your home, shaving your head, giving you a mao suit and sending you off to a female colony where you may never contact men again.

IME when discussing men on FWR most feminists mean men as a class not the individual men you know. No, most men in the UK aren't removing all there partners wages and getting rich whilst forcing all the women to live in poverty.

However, if you look at the division of wealth it is vastly more men who are at the top earning lots than women and there are lots of women at the very bottom of society who are scraping by on nothing whilst doing jobs that aren't well regarded. Some feminists (myself included) think that it is the patriarchy that keeps men rich (and therefore powerful) and women poor (so powerless).

It's like the rape thing. Under UK law, only men can be rapists. Therefore men rape. This does not mean that every man rapes or that your husband is a rapist but men, generally, as a class, are rapists.

Hope that makes sense.

I hope someone has Veeted it ............

Maybe so, hully, I am just saying how it seems to me.

Of course, some people will be a little nervous of getting into such an aggressive argument when you insist they must say things very much up front to you. It is tough.

I think I will bow out for a bit at least as I am finding it hard to be put on the spot so much. I do understand that is not the aim but I was only suggesting a very simple point about welcoming people with accommodating multiple ways of communicating.

I've totally lost the thread of this thread

hully, don't worry too much. I'ms ure your aims are good. It's just not always easy to match up what we want with how we come across.

They don't say what to you hully?

Is this PARD an ideal or a self-description?

No-one has yet told me I am rude by using LRDRFD, but this hardly proves that LRD's favourite RadFem Discourse is the best way forward, does it?

Hully:

LimeLeaf ... It's just a bit of FWR introspection! Does us good from time to time but, no, feminism doesn't mean you've got to abandon your family to live in a single-sex commune