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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

that 'chemical imbalance' myth

160 replies

Alameda · 26/06/2012 15:54

so nice to see this notion that has been used to oppress and repress women for decades finally discussed as a dangerous myth - chemical imbalances and other black unicorns

although I despair at how sort of prevalent it is, how regressive and how effective it is at distracting women from the cultural determinants of their unhappiness

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Alameda · 27/06/2012 09:46

but does low serotonin in the blood mean low amounts of serotonin swilling around in your brain?

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WicketyPitch · 27/06/2012 08:34

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strawberry17 · 27/06/2012 07:26

I do think AD's are very over prescribed, our surgery is very very prescription happy, agree with everything carnardtheduck put so eloquently. The drugs are meant to be used judiciously and with care, not dished out like smarties and people like me left to deal with the consequences of not being able to get off. No one ever offered to measure my chemical imbalance, no tests were conducted, I was just "told" I had a chemical imbalance, how did anyone know?

canardtheduck · 27/06/2012 04:49

hello - interesting to see some discussion based on my article! Mental illnesses are extremely complex and the causes will vary somewhat between individuals. Obviously, mood, cognition, and behavior have a biological basis and thus extremities of these facets of mental life will also have a biological basis. However, much of what people are told - e.g. depression is due to low serotonin is just not true. There are no way of actually measuring levels of serotonin in the brain, although we are now able to look at neurotransmitter function. The notion of chemical imbalances in the brain being responsible for mental illnesses is such a gross oversimplification and a reduction of horrific mental pain taken out of the context in which it occurs that is a myth and one that seems to make people feel sick. My patients who have a non-biological explanation tend to do better that those who have an exclusively biological explanation, and be more optimistic about there illness. This is not just a facet of the severity of their problem.

I think the question of chemical imbalances and psychiatric drugs are separate. I prescribe (judiciously) antidepressants, antipsychotics and other psychiatric medication where I think it will benefit the individual. If it has the possibility to help, where nothing else has, or the suffering too great, then medication can be helpful. But let's not conflate that with believing these meds, all of which were accidentally discovered to have an effect on the problems they treat are getting at the root cause. That is what my objection is. When we start narrowly displacing the problem onto the imagined 'broken brain', we ignore the wider determinants of mental health. Whilst genes influence how we think and feel, and a number of genetic polymorphisms and other genetic variations have been found to occur more often in those with 'schizophrenia' and bipolar illness, there are no 'genes for' these conditions insofar as the same genetic variations also occur in people who never experience mental illness.

I think the OP is correct to highlight that the notion of chemical imbalances causing depression, has detracted us from looking at how the structure of a patriarchal society has contributed to depression, which occurs twice as frequently in women as in men in the community (so not related to help-seeking behavior).

canardtheduck

Alameda · 27/06/2012 02:05

yes sleep v important for me, probably more so than lithium - no chatting on the phone and posting shite on the internet at 2am for example Shock

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 27/06/2012 01:42

Alameda - a close family member of mine has bipolar. My views are that with bipolar there is a biological or maybe genetic propensity. That propensity can be triggered by environmental factors e.g. stress, abuse, but without the biological propensity, it would never happen.

My personal experience with 1 close peson with bipolar is that she does forgerty how horrendous the manic or depressive episodes were - I don't.

That lithium is crucial, but other things can help as well. For example not having as far as you can manage it, a very stressful live. Avoiding over stimulation, getting enough sleep, etc. So no its not all about drugs, but drugs are part of it.

Alameda · 27/06/2012 00:39

No I know what you mean, am probably veering too far to the other extreme and probably because have never quite come to terms with being told I have something wrong with me - I obviously did inherit a predisposition to something, it's all through my family for generations (bipolar I mean) along with related problems like alcoholism, schizoaffective disorder, depression. But am going through yet another phase of HATING lithium. I don't know if it even does anything helpful for me, although they say it does, I think I forget what happens when I'm ill. And perhaps it is more dangerous to explain away each episode as occurring because of this or that environmental trigger and more helpful for me to ponder the possible biological basis. Although I think at times I have felt quite annoyed at self help suggestions and wanted to scream at people 'if I COULD I WOULD'. Have had my diagnosis confirmed over and over throughout the years by different consultants and self proclaimed foremost diagnosticians.

But be that as it may, say most people in my family inherit the genetic predisposition - why do some develop the full blown disorder and not others? Even in the major mental disorders like my one and schizophrenia there are social and other forces at work, I don't think we are just unexploded bombs waiting to go off. I want to know what else is going on to trigger that first and subsequent episodes and what sort of additional supports might reduce the risk of relapse. It can't be all about the drugs!

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racingheart · 27/06/2012 00:19

I dunno, Alameda. What you say is fascinating and I think there's truth in it. (Majority of my bi-polar friends had horrendous episodes in their childhoods.)

But my own experience is that the chemical imbalance suggestion fits best. I've had depression since childhood. For agonising years upon years I cringed in various therapists rooms while they overplayed the importance of the tiniest misdemeanours of my parents or boyfriend as causes of my illness. I tried SSRIs and they didn't work. They stifled the depression and everything else too. I thought I was destined to an entire life of this battle. It felt like walking uphill into a wind that pushes you backwards, forever.

Then I hit a really bad phase with PND which I tried to self-manage for four years with very little success (surprise) I went to the doctor and tried a different SSRI. It was like someone had waved a wand over my life. I felt happy and normal, energetic and capable. And I've felt that way for the whole time I've been on this medicine. If something bad happens I feel sad. If something really awful happens I feel low and cry. Just like people who don't have depression. After time I start to feel fine again. Nothing is out of proportion any more. Sad events don't trigger a vertiginous spiral. I don't ever feel sad for no reason. I feel like I owe my life to the SSRI I'm on now.

One of my DC is low by nature. I've done everything I can think of to teach him positive thinking, to feel good about himself, and he is certainly deeply loved in a stable, secure and very happy family. But I keep my eye out because I think he might have inherited the illness from me. He and I both know we can feel deeply sad for no reason, or bad about life even when it's good. No one has shoved him aside socially or personally. He's just wired that way.

None of what I am saying is meant to discredit what you're saying. I just think there is a vast range of reasons why people have mental illness. Chemical imbalance is, IMO, one. Social pressures and life experiences are certainly two others.

As you pointed out, not nearly enough research is funded into the vast range of illnesses known as mental health. Imagine if research into 'physical health' was lumped together in that way.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 26/06/2012 23:46
Grin
Alameda · 26/06/2012 23:42

as usual have killed my own thread

think MN should hand out medals for this sort of thing, perhaps annually?

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Alameda · 26/06/2012 22:04

The alternatives to lithium are anticonvulsants or antipsychotics - I think by mood stabiliser what is generally meant is 'treats mania and depression' or as in the case of lamictal 'gives you longer between episodes'. Quetiapine is a good example, it makes you sleepy and hungry so there's some of your symptoms of depression eradicated right there but it's not an antidepressant, you just seem less depressed if your sleep improves and your appetite picks up - until you're about 13 stone and suicidal from the lard!

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 26/06/2012 21:59

Alameda - Sorry don't know names of them. Newer drugs that are given as an alternative to lithium. Newer ones are pushed by the drug companies, but yes lithium has the research behind it because it has been used for so long. But there is not much money to be made out of it for the drug companies.

Alameda · 26/06/2012 21:46

(as opposed to anticonvulsants or antipsychotics used to treat mania that is)

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Alameda · 26/06/2012 21:45

how do you define 'mood stabiliser' though? I know there is evidence for lithium reducing the risk of suicide but not aware of any others, or indeed anything else that is an actual 'mood stabiliser'

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 26/06/2012 21:39

Lithium and other mood stabilisers save lots of lives for people with bipolar. The risk of death either through suicide or psychotic behaviour e.g. believing you can fly, for those who refuse to take mood stabilisers, is high.

Alameda · 26/06/2012 21:38

oh this is interesting

"EatsBrainsAndLeaves Tue 26-Jun-12 18:48:11
There is a big difference between depression and what used to be called manic depression and is now more usually called bipolar. Manic depression usually lasts a lifetime is incurable. Those with it usually take a mood stabiliser drug for the rest of their life. And for many, it is the manic phases which are much more of a problem than the depressive stages.

Just thought its not helpful to talk about depression and manic depression as if it is the same thing."

On average people with bipolar spend vastly more time depressed than manic, maybe that is mainly bipolar II people or because depressive episodes go on forever longer than manic/hypomanic but it's not true to say it lasts a lifetime and is incurable, some people do make a full (as in no more hospital admissions ever) recovery with or without medication!

Am also under impression from somewhere that 'mood stabiliser' is another term that has a more marketing than medical basis. But sorry, back to the locus of women's depression and anxiety - bad biochemistry or the patriarchy?

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Alameda · 26/06/2012 21:01

Aoh and obviously it is especially not good if women are struggling to withdraw from paroxetine or venlafaxine or similar if what they mainly needed in the first place was a close confiding relationship, freedom from abuse, financial autonomy or some other sort of support - we must not add to our problems by trying to medicate people into accepting shitty relationships,poverty and round the clock domestic slavery

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Alameda · 26/06/2012 20:58

phew! I think what I meant was, yes it is great that we are living NOW and not in the age of clitoridectomies or the rest cure and we have these treatments BUT it is not good if they are distracting us from other possible causes which is a particularly recurring theme for women throughout history I think

the manic depression/depression thing is interesting - I am a bit 50-50 about whether they are different animals or not, only really had one episode of quite hardcore depression (probably had millions of lesser ones) and it was probably just like any other episode of fairly severe clinical depression and might have been the only time antidepressants helped (before they made me manic)

although I never had any idea I was depressed or went to my gp or anything like that, just got taken into hospital, it was all a bit of a shock. Anyway manic depression/bipolar affects men and women equally whereas depression seems to be predominantly a female preserve and schizophrenia I think is 1.4 men to every woman.

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ArthurPewty · 26/06/2012 20:54

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SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 26/06/2012 20:48

Thank you for that, Alameda. Thanks

Alameda · 26/06/2012 20:45

sorry SDTG, I was thoughtless about how I said that - I should attach some sort of disclaimer about my own credentials of long term lithium treatment, it could well be saving my life (the evidence for lithium in bipolar at least is robust)

of course your experiences are welcome, sorry I made you feel otherwise

(will read rest of thread now!)

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Back2Two · 26/06/2012 20:38

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strawberry17 · 26/06/2012 20:30

Sorry rubbish at doing links!

strawberry17 · 26/06/2012 20:29

I don't often stray in feminism but this caught my eye. I think the "chemical imbalance" thing didn't work for me, I blog about my years struggling to get off of Sertraline/Prozac: Withdrawal Blogspot I actually hated the side effects of Sertraline (libido) and felt totally trapped by being hooked on Sertraline, and the thing that trapped me was my doctor and husband telling me I had a "chemical imbalance" and "if you had diabetes you'd take insulin wouldn't you?".
I understand that that SSRI's work for a lot of people, and the "chemical imbalance" theory works for a lot of people, but for me it left me feeling totally inadequate and like I was fundamentally flawed in some way.
That's just my experience and I'm just one person here.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 26/06/2012 20:25

Garlic - I agree that bipolar has a biological cause. Not so sure with depression.

Although some feel this way, I actually think believing bipolar is biological is worse than thinking it is environmental. Generally people have bipolar for life. If it was environmental, then surely it could be cured.