the paddling pool

Cote, you said the 'radfems/some books' thing to me on another thread.

It is pissing me off now. I won't go into why as it will derail the thread.

I came back on here to comment on the race thing (which I think could be interesting and relates to gender), but I don't think I will now.

I am a regular here and will happily answer any paddling pool questions however.

Just re-read the post in question. You start your post by addressing 'Juggling' by name - who is not an FWR regular. So you can see how it might be misconstrued?

I thought it sounded dismmisive -Glad you've clarified though.

If you are going to criticise a comment, you need to understand the context it was made in and the people it was aimed at. That is all.

I wasn't a general comment to the thread but to several RadFems, it was specifically re "all races are social construct", and it was not an attack.

I think that was clear to them, which is why they haven't accused me of attacking.

I'm calm thanks cote. I wasn't saying anything about the race argument - that comment just stood out as a bit off that's all.

Sorry, I meant 'I', not 'we' - it's my experience, not necessarily the same for others!

Running - those types of phrases do crop up regularly, of course. I think perhaps the difficulty is that they are a sort of shorthand for a lot of academic and political feminist thinking over many years, a bit like how other specialist fields develop their own vocab or TLAs.

For some of us newbies, we don't know all the thinking that sits behind those shorthand phrases so it can be quite hard to understand what they really mean, or what the thinking is behind them. And potentially frustrating if they get trotted out without a full explanation of the meaning, IYSWIM. A bit like lawyers roll out Latin phrases and legalese that no one else understands.

running - You need to calm down. I didn't dismiss their arguments by saying "you've all read the same books" (which wouldn't dismiss anything. so what if they did? does that mean those books were wrong?)

I actually dismissed their arguments by pointing to experiments that show gender is at least partially innate, and to the obvious racial differences in the world

"Same books" wasn't meant as an insult, needless to say. It is perfectly normal for people of the same persuasion to read the same influential writers of that viewpoint.

VictorGollancz - I see your point about not funding abortion being an unfeminist act as women should be free to make their own decisions about their bodies. Personally, i agree, although i don't know what that means for catholic or muslim women - can they never be seen as feminist because they won't support abortion?

Nonetheless, something like 120m more women will have at least some access to birth control by 2020 than now. So, does the fact that one aspect of the programme is potentially unfeminist 'taint' the rest of the programme? Does it matter when the outcome will be so beneficial to so many women? Is feminism all about the means, or can the means be forgiven, given the outcome that the programme will achieve?

My gut feeling, btw, is that overall it should be seen as a feminist act, because of the end outcome. But the abortion issue does trouble me...

Still wasn't a particularly constructive thing to say though. And an example of why radfems feel attacked. It sounded like you were dismissing their argument by saying 'oh you've all just read the same books', repeat the same arguments. BUt surely things like 'gender is a social construct' is a sentence that will come up frequently in discussions on feminism?

Cote - No I am not a newbie. But I haven't been here that long either.

running - The people here I said that about (Beachcomber, Alameda, EatsBrains) are not newbies. I said this before and can say it again, if you need me to.

Okay been away all evening but just a few points.

1. I am happy to discuss feminism with men, but I won't put as much time into it as i will with women. Because IME if men are going to be allies, generally it is obvious early on. Lots of men will never be allies.
2. Change comes about in things because women have demanded it, not because men have agreed. Although there have been male allies, every major change I can think of that was challenging the patriarchy was brought about by women demanding it - equal pay, votes, DV shelters, etc - all through women demanding these rights or setting things up.
3. Of course some feminists have raed the same books, but an awful lot haven't. I feel I should have read lots of books - but I haven't.

'What has unfair got to do with it?'

Erm, because it's unfair ?

Unfair to accuse posters on the paddling pool thread of "reading the same books and talking amongst yourselves for so long" blah blah - when the majority here aren't FWR regulars.

Night Cote,

I don't particularly want to discuss feminism with men on forums, more than happy in RL though.

We have our shared common experience and history of oppression down the ages and we also have our own personal experiences in relation to our own lives. I think that is reason enough for men to give us space to support each other. if we choose to seek men's opinions we could all rush off to the mens rights boards

I don't think it is about having read the same books, social theory often uses the same terms even in relation to different things. You could pick up lots of books on any kind of social theory and find that the writers use the same terms and they also quote from others work.

Anyway, I need to go and get my beauty sleep. I enjoyed this conversation and hope to continue tomorrow. Good night everyone.

What has "unfair" got to do with it? It sounds to me like the same ideas have been bouncing between the same people reading the same books. That is the only explanation I can find for the same memes being repeated. Like "gender is a social construct" or "no choice possible without equality".

Alameda, Eats, and Beach are not newbies, by the way, although most of the rest of us are.

It wasn't me Alameda.

Cote, it is FINE to want to discuss feminism with men. No-one saying you can't. I for one am not interested.

I've been backstabbed by women on numerous occasions but never oppressed by any, iirc.

That is actually very unfair Cote - this is the paddling pool, there have been a wide variety of posters new to FWR here. We haven't all been reading the same books.