the paddling pool

I can never remember what BDSM stands for either .

I think bondage, domination, sadism and masochism. Basically it is all of those types of sexual practices. And yes it is problematic.

1. Seem logical. I understand where this is coming from now but I'm not sure how one starts changing it?

A - I'm not totally sure how we will eventually bring it down either! There isn't a 10 point plan. Basically though it is doing actions that challenge patriarchy. So on a day-to-day basis challenging sexist attitudes, being pro woman, challenging rape myths, supporting campaigns to end abuse of women and girls. It is the putting into practice bit.

No problem with asking questions, that is what this thread is for.

There are radfems with men who do not do PIV ever and have been with their partners for years. So yes it is possible, although I don't know how common it is.

I haven't read any books around PIV and RadFem issues, although probably should. The link hagocrat.wordpress.com/resources/ takes you to a list of resources. In there is a link to a free download of Andrea Dworkin's books. She has written one called Intercourse that deals with this.

If we lived in a society without patriarchy we wouldn't have to be pro woman. We would just focus on individuals whether they were women or men. It is not about being a female supremacist as anti feminists allege.

I keep losing long posts so will do second post now.

I don't know what BDSM is

Reminds me of when I was a kid (teenager) and didn't know what 69 was !
I thought it was a sexual position eg. from Kama Sutra, and there must be at least 68 other ones ....

Sadly my sex life has turned out to be slightly less imaginative !!

Thank you for being patient with me and for those links, eats. I will have a thorough look at them at some point when I have time! The room explanation makes perfect sense although I am asking myself how far one needs to go with putting women at the centre - if there's a totally egalitarian society does that change?

I'm glad someone else has admitted to not understanding the Patriarchy. I feel less dense now!

Can you bear with me while I asked more newbie questions about the List and how it relates to day to day life?

1. Seem logical. I understand where this is coming from now but I'm not sure how one starts changing it?
2. I'm confused by tbh. Is this historical significance? Is it a generalisation or does one evaluate on a case-by-case basis as it were? How can relationships be renegotiated? Is an equalist position valid here? What if I want to take a position which is typically associated with being oppressed because I hate it when DH cooks And is DH a banned acronym?!
3. Ok. I get that.
4. That too.
5. Socially constructed, yes, but do away with gender how? By not labelling activities associated with specific gender or not having outward signs of gender or not publicly referring to gender?
6. Ok
7. You've lost me.
8. This is where I think I struggle with feminism which is maybe my faulty understanding of it. I am on board with being pro-women in general, and accept that women are under-aided and under-defended in general but I feel uncomfortable with dedicating myself solely to the defence of women on the grounds that men have enough advocates. Or can it be as simple as questioning everything and asking 'what about women, how does this in particular affect them?'
9. Yes, if you understand what you're talking about! Or does stuff like Guiding count where women and girls have that safe space?

I'm sorry if these are really silly questions! Some of it is probably linked to radical feminism rather than the general movement but I'm realising just how lacking my knowledge of basic feminism is, which isn't good really.

Yes - I have never engaged in BDSM myself, but had no idea that it was problematic in feminist terms until reading a thread on here. Then I realised that the only friend of mine who I know is into it is very much the submissive partner... and she is quite submissive to men in her behaviour anyway... and her then boyfriend was an arsehole... and I began to think, Hmm.

(I'm not criticising people who engage in BDSM here; I really don't know enough about the whole thing. But I do hate books like Fifty Shades of Shite that eroticise male control of women.)

But I am a beginner (I think), and it's an interesting new idea for me

• that we need to think about the nature of sex in our relationships in these sort of ways

Any books that analyse the issues around PIV from a radfem perspective - that you'd recommend ? This is a bit of a new idea to me - but makes sense that it's all worth thinking about.

I haven't shaved my legs except to go to rather un-radfem weddings for years, nor worn make-up since I was a teenager.

So, I'm half way there already

I used google to find out what was going on in my area. I don't think ALL radfems actually do number 9, i.e. do something about it. But most radfems think you should do.

In terms of PIV the idea is that you need to understand the analysis of it and why it is problematic, what you do with that analysis is up to you.

Some radfems become lesbians, some choose not to be in a relationship at all, some decide not to do piv anymore and some carry on as before. It is ultimately up to you and something personally you need to think about and decide what you do. I can imagine piv and not engaging in it, would be a problem in some relationships.

Beachcomber is a radfem, is married, shaves her legs and wears make up. She understands and agrees with the RadFem analysis around all of these, but still decides to do these. So it really is an individual decision.

Yeh, thanks for all this Eats - it's very interesting.

I admit I wasn't that confident either about what was meant by "patriarchy"Frak, or more of a challenge, how to go about changing it.

But numbers 2-8 in your list Eatsseem pretty straight-forward - I think I agree with all of those, or am beginning to. Just leaves number 9 - doing something about it all - I think I have some work to do on that one - but I'm looking forward to it Would love to go on a march with my daughter, and meet up with other women more often eg. at a local group.

How do I find out what's on in my area. Google ?

Anyway, that's why a paddling pool seems good - a place to ask some of the first questions on what could be a new journey for some ?

Another question though - doesn't re-negotiating sex with your partner to concentrate less on PIV create a few challenges in relationships ?
I guess individual radfems come to different conclusions and outcomes with that one !

Thanks, Eats, those are really good posts. Clarifies a lot of things. :)

Another link that gives an online list of lots of feminist resources including downloadable books for free.

hagocrat.wordpress.com/resources/

pate? I meant rape. Sorry terrible typing

Frak its fine. I think the OP has started this thread so people can ask questions.

The patriarchy is a short hand term for describing the way society oppresses women and gives a higher status to men. Through the law, institutions, government, culture, etc. So yes probably the same as what you mean by male centric.

Yes some men do suffer from DV. Although DV that leads to serious injuries, pate, death etc is almost always suffered by women. But the key point is that feminism is about focussing on the needs of women.

Individual men suffer from various crap situations. But under the patriarchy men get their needs looked at and cared about more already.

I think of it as going into a hall with an equal number of men and women. Some men are talking and men and women are listening to them. There are a few men struggling and some women are helping them. In a corner of the room are women who nobody is talking to. A few women are struggling, nobody is helping them. Feminism is about listening to and helping those women and girls that nobody is helping and nobody cares about.

That is why feminism - and I am talking about all kinds now - has prioritised working with women who have been raped, suffered DV, been sexually abused, etc. These area ll issues that are caused directly by the patriarchy and that most people didn't really care about until feminists started campaigning and setting up projects to support women.

See I don't even know if I'm a feminist? I might be an equalist? Or maybe at the moment a liberal feminist? But I don't understand what 'the patriarchy' is for starters. Is it a way of describing male-centric society as it is?

And why does being a radical feminist exclude being, say, anti-DV and recognising it can happen to men and women? Please don't jump on me for that, last time I asked I got mocked for being concerned about the poor menz.

See how I drown in an inch of water....

A few links below about radical feminism. Both links take you to a certain part of the blog that I thought might be helpful, but if you are interested, there is a lot more information on both blogs on other pages. I don't think this thread is about having a debate. But happy to answer any questions anyone might have.

factcheckme.wordpress.com/radfem-101/
noanodyne.com/pro-faab-womens-lib/

Radical feminism is not just a more extreme form of feminism. Radical in thsi context means to get to the root of. Of course there are disagreements amongst radical feminist, but there are commonalities that you have to agree with to call yourself a radical feminist.

1. That patriarchy oppresses women and that the solution is to overthrow patriarchy.
2. That Het relationships are an important part of day-to-day oppression of Het women
3. Being anti porn and anti prostitution as a result of recognising that these are basically society sanctioned abuse of women
4. That sex is a biological fact that can not be changed
5. That gender is socially constructed - at a simplest level - girls are brought up to like pink and want to be princesses and boys to be noisy and fight. And that gender controls and sets limits on what we all do and thus is not a good thing. RadFems thus want to get rid of gender.
6. That you analyse overall behaviour e.g. women being involved in prostitution, but you don't criticise individual women for this.
7. That PIV sex places women at harm through greater risk of STD's and unwanted pregnancy and that PIV is a male centric form of sex.
8. That you are pro women. Yes men have negative things happen to them, but rafeminism is about women.
9. That you don't just talk about radfeminism but that you do things in your real life to help girls and women - campaigning, volunteering, etc.

I think i have covered everything. But if I have left anything out please, someone else add it. But as you can see it is much more complicated than just fighting the patriarchy. I know a lot of my points could do with a whole essay to explain them - don't worry I am not going to type one. But I will drop in a few links in another post.

SGB really? That's really nasty and pointless. (them, not you)

I'm NOT a well read feminist but my understanding is that liberal feminism seeks to better women's position in (patriarchal) society but radfeminism seeks to remove the patriarchy.

I think that the whole "choice" argument has done some nasty work to feminism and the feminist cause.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that having 'pure' politics doesn't necessarily stop a person from being an arsehole and a bully. (Oh, and before anyone starts, I am NOT having sly digs at any MNers or anyone who posts on this board. I am in fact thinking of a few individuals I have encountered in RL in the past. Who would interrupt a discussion on reproductive rights to have a pop at someone who was wearing nail varnish or a low-cut shirt.)

Thanks Alameda :)

I do lean towards what's considered Radical Feminism (in Ayerobot's quiz I came out 100% Rad, 66% Socialist, 66% Womanist) but I'm actually perturbed that some of what seems fairly obvious to me (ie porn & prostitution are not good things for women as a whole, no matter that a handful of women within those areas may benefit from it/choose to do it) is considered radical.

I think that the media (which has always been a boy's club - imho Rebekah Wade simply played by the men-made rules and became blokier than thou) has a lot to answer for on that one. I'm very slowly making my way through Backlash and it's made me think about why the gains that appeared to have been made in the early 80's have been exchanged/eroded to the current 'feminists are hairy manhaters' trope and if you are humourless and uptight if you disagree with the increased sexualisation of society and the objectification of women therein.

To me that's not radical and it saddens me that some people think it is. What to do about it, though... apart from challenge it when it arises.

X Post with Hothead BTW

• Thanks Hothead

Do you think a radfem has a stronger sense of fighting male oppression, whereas perhaps a feminist would think more of standing up for women's rights as a focus ? ( Or something like that )