the paddling pool

Thanks Waspie - just off to look at that now ...

Here is is Juggling Ayerobot posted it on one of Dittany's recent threads: What type of feminist are you?

How do I find that quiz Waspie - that sounds intriguing/ interesting ?

May I ask for a book recommendation? Feminism 101 sort of thing. I've read feminist literature and, according to the quiz, I'm more rad than liberal but I have no knowledge of feminism.

I enjoy reading the FWR board but feel unqualified to post. A couple of "feminism for beginners" books may help

TIA

Mini - Because RadFems don't believe the oppression of women is founded on class.

I pay £12.50 an hour to the lady who cleans my house. She's lovely and I am in awe of her for setting up her own business with her own usp. I don't think I am oppressing her but maybe I am in the context of society. However, if I don't have her clean and do it myself then she has less capacity to make money. I don't think cleanings beneath me it's just there's lots of other things i would rather do with my time. I often think I would be happy to be a self employed cleaner if the chips fell that way.

I did the quiz! I'm a radfem apparently... Don't know what I think about that really. Thanks for the thread btw. :)

Speverend - Yes I know what you mean. But no I think they just felt very guilty that they had a cleaner. I don't think paying me more than the market rate was from any political analysis. But honestly, I didn't care why they paid me much more than the going rate - I was just happy to have the money!

Can I ask why? I believe it would but other people who want to know more about the radfem perspective might be interested too.

Eats: don't you mean "lefties who place a higher value on my devalued women's work than I do?"

This is a great thread - I am learning a lot. Thanks to all contributors.

Mini - Radical feminist recognise the class system and the oppression it causes. They just don't think that if the class system disappears that women are going to magically have their position transformed.

Eats, I think is right on this point about titles and the way we use them and why. The reason we are happy to call a lawyer a lawyer rather than "this is a very educated, well paid and worthy person who practices law" (bit of a mouthful) is because domestic labour and indeed quite a lot of labour within the wider socio/economic sphere is undervalued. If the work is undervalued then the title of those who perform that work is also undervalued. This effectively means that people that perform certain work are devalued.

This is what happens when people are classified under the socio/economic class system. What is interesting is the way we use language in terms of disability, we refer to "John has a disability" rather than "John is disabled"
If we refer to the fire alarm as being disabled, we assume it has no capacity to perform any function when disabled. This is why it is important to use descriptives that do not further devalue someone. The problem with the socio/economic class system is that descriptives are not used because we start from the point that some work is worthy and some work isn't. Changing the language from "This is my cleaner" to "This is a poorly paid person who works as my cleaner" we still have the problem that both terms devalue and will continue to do so until we have a classless society.

I'm not sure where Radical feminists or Liberals stand on this. But if we have a class system then we continue to value people according to the roles performed, irrespective of sex although perpetuating sexism and segregation.

Sorry going back quite a few posts, but I would talk about the plumber, the solicitor, the builder. So what is wrong with the cleaner? Is it the word cleaner which is really the issue?

And if you are going to employ a clenaer it is better not to use an agency. Women are paid minimum wage, or pennies above and often treated badly. Directly getting a cleaner means that you can make sure their pay and conditions are fair. And as I said i loved being a cleaner for guilty lefty types - as they way overpaid me!

I've seen a lot of recommendations for The Equality Illusion as a good intro to feminism, although I haven't read it myself.

I am annoyed with myself for mentioning DD and not DS, why did I do that? My DS is good around the house and has no clue about constitutes "womens work" or "mens work" - if I asked him I know he would say that in our house the man cooks and hoovers and I do the decorating and mowing the lawn. Not sure what I am trying to say, it is all very thought provoking and I am glad that people are talking in simple terms that I can understand, because so many other threads that I have lurked on have gone way over my head. Think I need a "Basic A-Z guide to Feminism"

Plenty I do tell DS it is worthwhile, but this where I confuse myself, why did I mention DD in my last post and not DS? If I am going to be perfectly honest, looking back (because I don't clean anymore) I made them (DS & DD) know that it was worthwhile because 1 family Icleaned for spent so much time in hospital with their dying child and another family were elderly. So was I still justifying it? Could I have given my DC the same worthwhile talk if the families I had been cleaning for were your "average" family with no added pressures? this is what i am questioning myself about.

Yes, and I spent several years working as a carer and it's good honest work, as is cleaning. I'm not criticising anybody's personal choice and the last thing I want to do is to devalue this work further. As I said previously, it's among the most basically necessary work on the planet.

It's still important to note that these are massively feminised, low-waged industries because this is still seen as women's work. It's something that usually gets overlooked when we talk about women's increasing career successes - that in order to hold down a career it's still necessary for this work to be done, it's still generally the woman's responsibility to find somebody else to do it and that somebody else is 99 times out of 100 another woman.

Out of interest, would you tell a DS it was a worthwhile job?

Don't know, Skiing. They earn more than legal aid lawyers apparently. I wonder how many of them do their own housework when they get home and how many of them have a wife who does the bulk of it so they can relax after a hard day's work.

I have got to say this thread has been very interesting and has definitely answered some questions that I have been too afraid to ask.
Eatsbrains Thankyou for taking the time to explain so much, although I don't know where I stand on all of it you have explained it in such a way that at least now I know what questions I am asking myself

Ok, re the cleaning, I have been a cleaner, never felt oppressed or looked down on. I appreciate I was probably lucky with my employers but I was definitely made to feel they were lucky to have me and they never stopped telling me what a difference I made to them. I did tell my DD it was a worthwhile job and that I was proud of my work, was that wrong Also, if I could have picked up a couple of extra cleaning jobs I would have happily then paid for someone else to clean my house. Where does that leave me?

But the majority of sewerage workers are men. Are they oppressed?

SGB, who cleans up the cleaners' shit? Do they get paid for it?

I'm not having a pop at anybody who employs a cleaner, or who works as a cleaner. Doubtless cleaners (and carers, childcare workers etc.) would rather have the job than not. We all do what we have to to get by in a system which doesn't work in our interests. I do think it's important though to talk about who ends up doing the vast bulk of this poorly paid or unpaid work - women - and why that is.

The equalist argument

I think it's a total fallacy that feminists don't want equality. I've never met any who say they are looking for women to take over and run the world or even do the very many horrible things that men do to women. Feminists want equality. Being a feminist doesn't mean you don't want equality.

Mini- yes I can see the work would have been gruelling and women may have welcomed the respite but I presume they were bearing children all through this time too - they didn't stop working a long side men just to have children. Sorry just trying to get my head around why we were pushed into the domestic sphere after being in partnership. Sorry if being dense.

Louie that's my take on it too. I work f/t and my male dp does the majority of the child care and house work. I don't see myself as a feminist just someone who thinks people should have equality. I do find the feminist sections interesting though!

You have a point I think that's the idea of good socialism - I just think male or female we have a responsibility whenever we can to clean up our own shit then no-one gets lumbered with all of it, but like I've said up thread it's a bit emotive for me so I may not be seeing the issue clearly.