the paddling pool

Frak - Just to say personally, that I won't make deals other feminists will. But part of that is also about how I would feel about myself if I did make those deals. For me it is also about self respect and not making deals that I don't feel I have to. But not everyone feels the same.

Frak - Is it possible not to live in society and not make some deals with the patriarchy? Maybe, but personally I am not sure it is. What deals you think are okay to make will vary from individual to individual.

For example, I think everyone would agree ignoring sexist jokes a group of men are making say in a bar, when you are frightened that you will be attacked if you challenge them, is I think a deal virtually everyone would make. Ignoring sexist jokes from your parents because you don't want to upset them by saying what they are saying is wrong, is a deal lots of feminists wouldn't make - but some would.

So it really is up to you to come to an idea of what you think are acceptable deals that you can live with. But obviously that may change. When you are seriously ill, having a hard time, etc, you may make deals that at stronger times you wouldn't. And that really is okay. At the end of the day we still need to live in a patriarchial society.

I've been thinking about this idea of making deals with the patriarchy. Do most feminists feel that it's an okay thing to do? And if you don't make deals with the patriarchy what kind of impact does that have in practical terms? The more I think about it the more I see how pervasive the oppression of women is and how conditioned we are to believing its okay - and that's just a few days!

I came out 100% liberal feminist, 80% radical feminist, and 0% anti-feminist, which is pretty much what I would have guessed. I ignored the gun question as I didn't feel it really applied to the UK.

I will argue passionately against rape myths, porn, prostitution and misogyny - irl and on MN. I have not given the political/capitalist/marxist arguments an awful lot of thought in the past, but I've been reading up on them on FWR and I find it really interesting. The more I read on the topic the more interesting I find it, and (I think) the more radical I become.

I also wear make-up, have long hair, like nice clothes, shave legs, stay slim etc. I think 'making deals with the patriarchy' sums it up nicely. And I have a husband, 2 sons and a daughter - so not so much of a man-hater.

EatsBrainsandLeaves - I'm in good company then We certainly don't play out any gender-typical roles at home and we have the backing of all our family. We talk about equality and balance and sharing responsibilities and also talk about how all toys, cartoons, games and opportunities are open to both boys and girls. This is how I was brought up and I didn't turn out too badly (most of the time!)

My son sees me and my partner taking the same roles - working, doing chores etc. But will be exposed more and more to sterotyping and that concerns me. Personally, I certainly make deals wth the patriarchy. I also appreciate that as a woman I am in a more privileged sub-set than most. We also live in a nuclear family.

I've never really questioned whether I am a feminist because I have always been one; but so many women on FWR call themselves feminists and others have called them anti-feminists, so I took the quiz out of my own insecurity I don't take the results seriousy - just a mildly interesting piece of fun.

Thanks KRITIQ for the further links.

Mini I feel there are ways to change the nuclear family for me and my children - to broaden my experience and theirs, just by valuing a wider network of friends, family, and community. Just that it doesn't have to be the prescribed, isolated, do everything together and allow no-one else in, sort of set up ?

Is that any help ? I'm sure there's much more I could do along these lines ....

(Interesting how many of us came out as 100% rads ! That's a bit of a surprise )

I did the quiz and it came out 100% socialist but I knew it would because the questions were leading and obvious. I could possibly have rigged it so it told me what I wanted to hear but great fun.

Intersectional Feminism recognises that all individuals and groups experience both oppression and privilege and social, economic and political justice can only be achieved by acknowledging and addressing that interplay of factors YY KRITIQ

Do we all make deals with the patriarchy? probably, I know I do every day. I work for myself, I shave my legs and I live with a man. Men are probably here to stay, it's understandable and inevitable that some bargains will be made. However for me the real no no would be supporting the sex industry. I have yet to find a compelling argument in its favour. Making a bargain to overlook the exploitation of some women for the sake of other women is for me not something that can be rationalised.

Coping with conflicting views, the hardest for me is the nuclear family, don't agree with it, hate it, know it's not good for me (thats me not you) but still happy and still hanging in there because it might be the optimal conditions in which to bring up children. Although brain says no.

(All this salt isn't good for us you know!)

ah x-post KRITIQ

Grrr - here's the last linky from above. Sorry! I?m an intersectional radical woman of color Feminist.

I got 100% radfem but then among other things I got 20% antifem. I'm wondering if it was the gun questions. It's a fun way of finding out vaguely where you fit but I'd treat it with a large pinch of salt.

Oh, just a quick note - I think that wee quiz is a bit slanted towards Americans, particularly with some of the questions about gun control, so maybe needs a big pinch of salt with the results! Also, not all feminist fit themselves into specific little boxes, which I think is a very good thing! :)

I just wanted to add a couple links to those already listed by Mini, Eats and probably a few others above related to the concept of Intersectional Feminism. It is perhaps more recognised in the context of North American feminism and women's struggles in developing countries, which may be why at least in my experience, it's misunderstood amongst many European feminists.

The roots of the concept were founded primarily amongst feminists of colour who felt that none of the other "strands" of feminism acknowledged their experience of both institutionalised sexism and racism, and in some instances, they felt their concerns about racism within the women's movement were not heard.

In time, Intersectional Feminism came to include the need to recognise the specific experience of those who experience more than one form of oppression (not just racism and sexism.) In addition, the experience of a person at that "intersection" itself can be unique and not just "sexism with an added helping of racism," for example. So, it's something like a venn diagram - a disabled woman may experience some of the same forms of oppression as a non-disabled woman and some of the same forms of oppression as a disabled man, but also oppression FROM both non-disabled women and disabled men AND forms of oppression unique to her specific experience as a disabled woman.

Intersectional Feminism recognises that all individuals and groups experience both oppression and privilege and social, economic and political justice can only be achieved by acknowledging and addressing that interplay of factors. It also recognises that the mechanisms of oppression are often similar, even when used against different groups of people - e.g. women, Lesbian, bisexuals and gay men, disabled people, working class people, migrant, people of colour, people of differing faith and cultural backgrounds, transgender, older people, younger people, etc. Examples include things like demeaning language, limiting their economic opportunities, exclusion from decision-making, threats, violence and abuse.

This wiki entry is a bit dry and focusses on Intersectionality as a broad concept - not just related to feminism, but the links particularly to the work of Kimberle Williams Crenshaw, Patricia Hill Collins, Audre Lorde and bell hooks are very useful.

This article also explains the links between Anarcha Feminism and Intersectional Feminism.

This is a short, accessible description of the views of a woman who describes herself as a [http://life-tbd.tumblr.com/feminist radical, intersectional feminist of colour], to give an idea of how this perspective translates to the beliefs of one intersectional feminist.

Hope that's helpful to those interested in exploring the different strands of feminism.

I came out at 100% Radfem on that quiz. Interesting.

For people thinking about what 'patriarchy' means it is just a word to describe a male dominated socio-political system.

Patriarchy = male dominated society = male supremacy. They all mean the same thing.

I read a good definition the other day;

Patriarchy is the power of the fathers: a familial-social, ideological, political system in which men - by force, direct pressure, or through ritual, tradition, law and language, customs, etiquette, education and the division of labour, determine what part women shall or shall not play, and in which the female is everywhere subsumed under the male.

My girlfriend calls herself an apprentice RadFem

In terms of your son, all you can do is challenge things and encourage him to not limit activities to boys or girls activities, toys, etc - but do what he wants to do. Buy books, cartoons, etc as well that show a wide representation of what boys/girls and men/women do. He will also look at you and any partner you have to see how different sexes behave, so like all things you want children to learn, you need to mirror the behaviour you want him to copy. But parents are not the only influence on their children..

EatsBrainsandLeaves - thank you. I missed your link first time through but I will take a look later.

Mini I'd quite like a badge actually maybe "Trainee rad-fem"? I'm [very] old fashioned and like real books (showing my age!) and I don't have a phone with web access. I will certainly read through the info on this thread though, thanks again.

I appreciate what you are both saying and will post my daft questions. My main one at the moment is how should I bring up my son to be a feminist (or whatever the male term is)? I hope that DP and I set a good example of equality and non-gender stereotyped behaviour at home but already it's beginning at nursery (he's 4) and he is occasionally saying things like "that's for girls", "girls can't play football" and "don't like pink".

On the quiz I was 100% rad, 83% anarcha, 58% Eco, 48% socialist, 40% womanism, 30% amazon, 28% liberal, 8% Anti and 0% libertarian. A little shocked by that but I'm sure a different quiz would give me different results!

Thanks for clarifying Beachcomber. Yes you are right

Haven't read the rest of the thread but just wanted to talk about me comment on this from EBAL;

Beachcomber is a radfem, is married, shaves her legs and wears make up. She understands and agrees with the RadFem analysis around all of these, but still decides to do these. So it really is an individual decision.

I agree with radical feminist analysis - that society is male dominated and that women cannot achieve equality unless patriarchy is demolished. For shorthand on MN, I do describe myself as a radical feminist.

I am married, and I accept that this is contradictory to my politics - that isn't too hard. Less easy is the cognitive dissonance that I engage in in order to reconcile my situation. I do shave my legs in summer - I live in France and am not brave enough to brazen hairy legs in France. I don't dye my greying hair and the constant comments on that are enough to put up with. I very rarely wear any make-up.

None of the above are radical feminist acts. The way I, and a lot of feminists look at it, is that we all make our deals with patriarchy, and feminism is not about judging women on their individual deals (unless they harm other women).

Welcome to the section to anyone new.

Thanks for this thread, I've learnt a lot. I'm not sure I would class myself as a radfem but that quiz seems to think I am, scoring 100% radfem, 89% libfem, and yet I also got 17% antifeminism

I don't necessarily think much about feminism on a day-to-day basis (well, until I came to mn and started lurking on some of these threads) but my attitudes to what I should and shouldn't be expected to do are very different to my grandparents and quite different to my parents too even though they thought they were being quite progressive when we were growing up.

www.redletterpress.org/feminism101.html

Feminist thought by Rosemarie Tong Covers all feminist thinking and gives an introduction to the main strands of thinking, socialist/marxist/materialist, radical and liberal

monthlyreview.org/2005/07/01/what-is-socialist-feminism

The Radfem hub is an excellent source of info for all things RadFem

radicalhub.com/2011/05/24/what-is-radical-feminism-2/

overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-207/feature-gail-dines-sharon-smith/This article is really worth a read as it gives a lot of information about feminist thinking in relation to pornography. Gail Dines wrote "Porn land" and she discusses Pornography with Sharon Smith the socialist feminist and author of Women And Socialism: Essays On Women's Liberation (which I still haven't got round to reading!)

Hi Waspie,

Don't know if you saw it but I posted this link above which gives a 101 to Radical Feminism. Can't help with other feminism 101's though.

factcheckme.wordpress.com/radfem-101/

Also this link takes you to various free online reading about feminism. Although not a 101, there is lots of useful stuff in there.
hagocrat.wordpress.com/resources/

And the whole point of this thread I thought was you don't need to know anything, but maybe have questions that you are worried others think are too basic.

Waspie, no one need feel unqualified to post here. There are no certificates or medals for good feminism I will have a think about books and hopefully someone who knows more about radical politics will be back and have some suggestions. Did you want to read about feminism from the radical point of view or just in general?

• Felt a little out of my depth though with some of the more political questions

Well, I came out as 100% radfem in that - which I was surprised at because I didn't put "high" for strength of opinion very often. I thought radfems were more radical than that ! I think it was 56% for libfem which is what I guessed I would be.