the paddling pool

Sorry, I use "the deals with patriarchy" short hand quite a lot, not because I think individual women are conspiring to make deals but because we live within patriarchy, under it's influence, we have to find a way through it as individuals and collectively. Hence the need for rape crisis centres, these services work within and apart from the wider social framework. Set up by feminists but still taking referrals from other institutions and still relying on a money economy to fund the service. This is absolutely a crucial deal to be made, there are no alternatives.

What I have more difficulty with on a personal level is (no surprises) my own situation. I like many women feel that we provide too much care and domestic labour that is largely hidden, unacknowledged, under valued and unremunerated. I have too like Frak, questioned how I can challenge this whilst also still doing what I feel is right for my family. For me it boils down to the fact that under patriarchy and advanced capitalism a persons value is their economic value and little more, the society is wrong Frak.

For example - You sound admirably pragmatic to me Jodidi about your hairy/ non-hairy armpits. And can totally understand where you're coming from having worked with children too

I just think the philosophy I've been talking about has made me more of a pragmatist - and an opportunist even. And I see that as relating to my thoughts on choices as a feminist.

Frak you sound a lot like me in many respects. I don't shave my legs, or do anything with my bikini line. But I do shave my armpits, purely because I wear sleeveless tops quite a bit and when I write on the board at school all the kids would see all the hair and it would make my job harder to resettle them after all the comments they would make.

I have a job I like but haven't applied for promotions I wanted because I don't want to take the time away from the dcs. He doesn't feel the same restrictions though and will happily go to the gym 3 times a week straight from work because I am always there to collect the dcs from childcare (I drive and he doesn't so that's always the reason given why I collect them).

Victor Frankl for example said that our last great freedom was that in any situation we had the choice of how we responded to it. And he said this after living through the holocaust in a concentration camp. I find that a very profound life philosophy.
And I see it as relating to how we, as individual women, make our own ways - sometimes alongside others - through patriarchal society.

Yes they will juggling

Maybe if you have more faith in women though it's a philosophy than can sit alongside feminism quite happily.

I guess most feminists have other beliefs and philosophies alongside their feminist ones ?

Juggling - If you think about it, a woman might want to start a brothel and make lots of money by using trafficked women. An extreme example maybe, but just to illustrate the point that feminism is not about doing or going for what you want in life.

Frak - In terms of the questions you ask.

Shaving - We all know that being hairless in legs, etc is a female beauty myth. Some feminists decide to stand against that and not shave. Some think there are more important issues to worry about. I don't think anyone can give you an answer of what you should do though. You might find reading the Beauty Myth useful?

Childcare - If bfing is important to you, you need to be in a situation where you can do this. In terms of jobs though and who does the childcare, I think the issue is that there shouldn't be an assumption that one partnerw ill do it or do more. It is something that you need to talk about and agree on without the assumption that one partner's job or career is more important then the other partner's.

"Neither is feminism going for what you want in life"

Really ? That is news to me !

Juggling - I agree feminism is not about having a go at what individual women do. But neither is feminism going for what you want in life, or what is important to you. That is really individualism you are talkinga bout. Fine if you are not a feminist, but not if you are not.

I think you just have your eyes on your own priorities Frak and good for you - things ranging from enjoying special occasions without causing any social friction (smooth legs !) to relaxing on holiday with friends and doing everything to facilitate this. Then bigger things like giving your children a stable home life through your choice of a stable job, which also enables you to continue breastfeeding which is important to you.

I like Stephen Covey's "7 Habits of effective people" (sorry to mention a book by a man !) - with it's ideas of having some vision, and knowing your priorities. I think all that helped me a lot, along with other writings such as Victor Frankl - to just go for what you want in life, and what is most important to you.

At the end of the day whether that means in any given situation having hairy or smooth legs - it's up to you ! ( No deals with the patriarchy needed ? )

I don't like the term PIV, I think it is contradictory to feminist ideals.

Make sex woman centric, worship the goddess etc. VGRP.

I don't want a label, I'll just be a feminist I think.

I really don't think the 'deal' thing is at all related to the expression about the devil.

As, I say, I think it is just an Americanism - they use the word 'deal' quite a lot.

It is just a way of saying that women shouldn't beat themselves up about certain behaviours - no woman is an island type idea.

It's not the one I would love

Hully - Of course you can be whatever type of feminist you want, or not a feminist at all. But you can like PIV sex and be a RadicalFeminist. Its not about personal enjoyment. It is about understanding and agreeing with the analysis. I am sure, although I haven't asked them, that there are RadFems who do and enjoy PIV sex.

Deals to me sounds like in order to get somewhere women are doing things they don't want to? Leg hair, for example. I hate shaving, epliating hurts, waxing is expensive. Most of the time I leave them be but for special occasions I depilate and this summer when we're away with friends I will too - is that making a deal or is that me being too weak?

I'm the one who is responsible for childcare because my employer is more flexible than DHs, possibly because I'm female. I also took a job that I like but it's the one I would love so we could give DCs a stable home life that DHs job makes very difficult. Did I make a deal there or is it just facing up to society? I like to think it would be the same if I had DHs job but the reality is that I wouldn't be able to and continue BFing which is important to me.

I think I'm struggling with the position I've got myself into even though on the surface DH is very supportive of my working (unusual for military wives/mothers here) and he does pull his weight when his work allows.

It is evil; thus I don't like to think I'm "making deals" with it. Makes it sound like women are getting something out of being oppressed.

I think 'making deals with patriarchy' is an Americanism.

A similar sentiment is 'doing what you have to to get by in patriarchy'.

Or 'doing what you have to to survive in patriarchy' (used in more extreme situations where women are under threat).

I'm not too keen on the notion of women making their own way - I prefer the solidarity of making it about patriarchy and not so much about individual choices. (The idea behind 'the personal is political').

Perhaps because then it's more about the woman's own agenda than about the agenda of men around her. She has her own eyes on what's important to her, and just responds to stuff that comes up in whatever way best fits with her own agenda - what she feels is most important to her and the people and things that she cares about.

just seen eats' list.

Not a radfem then.

I like VGRP sex.

But isn't the patriarchy kind of like the devil? I don't mean in terms of an evil figure plotting against women. But patriarchy kills so many women around the world and causes lots of terrible suffering for women and girls - particularly those most vulnerable. So it is evil surely?

Juggling, I agree with that. "Making deals with" sounds a little too much like we're dealing with the devil.

Juggling - interesting. Why do you think every woman has to make her own way through the patriarchy is more resoectful of woman than making deals with the patriarchy?

It's perhaps a subtle thing but I think I prefer the idea that every woman has to make her own way through the patriarchy, or through life in a patriarchal society, than the idea of always "making deals with the patriarchy"

Just feel that the former idea is possibly more respectful of women