the paddling pool

'perhaps the feminist ideology is different in different cultures'

Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. For example, i can see that women in Afghanistan would have their own unique shared experiences compared to women in the west.

Saying that, it is an area I know virtually nothing about and would be very interested in learning more too, waspie.

As a starter for ten, I found this on Wikipedia about post-colonial feminism

Can anyone recommend any proper reading in this field?

MooncupGoddess You have just described me exactly with your last post. I wholeheartedly want women to have the freedom to choose whether or not to become pregnant, but once a pregnancy has begun I cann't see it as anything other than a life and cannot support ending it. That doesn't mean I am judging any woman who makes that decision, I have a lot of empathy for women that are in that position, it just means that I personally would not have any involvement in funding or assisting the process.

Waspie I'm quite happy for you to think it's as basic as the right to vote and I can fully understand your viewpoint, but my view is different. I don't see that refusing to support abortion is pushing an agenda that is harmful to women, it's just standing by your own morals whether other people agree with them or not. I don't see that that anybody should be forced to continue an unplanned pregnancy if sufficient and reliable contraception is the norm. I absolutely agree with the right to choose, but I believe that choice should be made before conception.

From a purely economical point of view (setting aside my own morals) it is cheaper to fund long term reliable contraception than it is to fund abortion. So governments and organisations around the world would reach a much larger proportion of women if they focussed on improving access to contraception. So if the current percentage of women able to access reliable/long-term contraception is under 50% and we can increase that to 80% (or preferably 100%) then there would be a larger decrease in unwanted babies than if we used the same funds to provide abortions.

That is a good post, ScroobiousPip.

I am as pro-choice as they come, but it's very easy to see why people of both sexes are unhappy with abortion. For my part, if I see someone who has real moral problems with abortion and doesn't support funding it, but who is keen to promote contraceptive use, women's ability to refuse sex, and support for babies born as a result of unplanned pregnancies - and who understands the pressures that lead women to choose termination, and doesn't judge/seek to punish the woman who make that decision - then I would be happy with that person calling themselves a feminist.

I realise though that this is a very personal view.

GoodButNotOutstanding I consider a woman's right to chose to be as fundamental to equality as a woman's right to vote. I just can't see how someone who is pro-choice is aiding women's rights. For me feminism is very much about women doing no harm to other women and working to pull down barriers and, on a day to day basis, make women's lives better. Forcing a woman to keep an unwanted pregnancy is potentially emotionally, mentally and physical harmful to her and by extension to her child.

Obviously I'm glad that women are doing good things all around the world but if the motivation for the good things they are doing is to push an agenda that is, or may be, harmful to other women then I am sceptical if that person says they are a feminist. Does Melinda Gates claim to be a feminist?

I picked a bad example with the Catholic Church - perhaps a better example would be that if I had a bacon sandwich this morning I can't see how I can call myself a vegetarian. Similarly if I am doing something that is potentially detrimental to women I wouldn't feel that I could call myself a feminist.

In the examples ScroobiousPip gives I would call these women missionaries. Would they really define themselves as feminists? Perhaps the feminist ideology is different in different cultures - perhaps feminism is restricted within the confines of the religious doctrine or cultural boundaries. I would be sad if this were true, although I could understand why. Something else I know nothing about but would like to learn more!

Waspie, re termination, I've flipped flopped a bit on this all week. Personally I am pro-choice and believe govts should fund this.

My concern is that this is predominantly a western perspective and that there are a lot of women around the world who regard themselves as feminist and do a tremendous amount of work to promote women's rights in the developing world and globally who are not pro-choice, for cultural or religious reasons. Many Muslim feminists would fall into that camp, I imagine. Do we really want to alienate such women by telling them their views are anti-women because they do not conform to a western definition of feminism? Don't get me wrong, I do see the feminist argument but I also see the potential for a backlash against A perception of western imposed values which might do more harm than good.

Love your idea of a feminist dictionary btw!

waspie Why would you think people would not accept you as Catholic if you didn't accept certain parts of the faith? I am a Catholic, but I think gay marriage is a good idea, wholeheartedly support free and readily available contraception across the world, I am unmarried yet have 2 children and live with my partner. My priest and everyone else at my church knows all of this and are perfectly happy to call me a Catholic. So it's not just fwr where people can identify as something without subscribing fully to everything other people believe that to mean.
I am also the poster that thinks I can be a feminist without supporting abortion. I will say again that I have never and would never condemn a woman who has made that decision, I don't actively campaign against abortion and I never would but I don't support it. I don't see abortion as a basic tenet of feminism, a lot of women may consider it to be but there are probably quite a number of women that don't. I think it is a shame that women can be doing a lot of good to improve the lives of women around the world but can be told they are not a feminist because they don't support one thing that other feminists think they should. Just because I have other strong beliefs doesn't mean I can't share the vast majority of what people consider to be feminism.

The quiz that was linked to earlier in the thread identified me as 100% radfem and 80% libfem, so I'm clearly on the same page as everyone else in most of the beliefs of feminism.

I'm just catching up on the weeks posts and a lot has happened that feels uncomfortable and has left me rather confused.

1. Discussing feminism with men. I discuss feminism with my dad, my partner, my male friends. I find it useful to get a male perspective sometimes and I feel it helps them understand my motivations and helps me explore things/comments/ideas that I feel uncomfortable with but I'm unable to put into words. They cannot tell me how to think or what to think but can often help me understand why I think the way I do. I do find male input in FWR to generally be jarring, inflammatory and designed to provoke. But here in the paddling pool should men not be more welcome, if their motivation is to learn about feminism?

1. PIV. thank you for the explanation on why PIV is harmful to women. I understand and can see the political reasoning now.

1. Termination. I have questions here - I cannot see how a person who does not support the right to chose and would be happier if termination was not available can consider themselves to be a feminist. It is totally contrary to the doctrine - no? it's like turkeys voting for Christmas and a completely unfeminist stance. Why are some saying that is it a valid feminist stance? I could call myself a Catholic but if I didn't believe in the various tenets of the faith surely I wouldn't be accepted as such? Why is it only in FWR where people are supposed to just accept that someone is what they say they are?

1. Gender definitions. Much debate in this thread seems to be because posters have different ideas on the meaning of "gender", "gender roles" and "sex". Is there a feminist dictionary where these terms are defined because I'm finding it frustrating reading posts/threads where people are so clearly talking about a word but ascribing different meanings!? Until a word, or term, has an agreed defination surely posters are just talking around in circles? Perhaps at the start of a debate the OP should give a definition of the subjective words/terms they are referring to and how they are defined in that thread. Then everyone would have the same starting point at least. It's like creationists saying that evolution is just a "theory" so they can have their own theory but not bothering to understand that "theory" has a totally different meaning in scientific work than it does in theological.

Long post, sorry. I guess in short I'm just asking if this can remain a paddling pool as I'm starting to get my knees wet rather than just my ankles

Fair enough VG, was just wondering if that was the reason for more general lack of interest.

I don't think there's a perception, Himalaya - it's only been me and some others having a chat in here about her. Certainly I have pointed out a couple of times that it's not anti-feminist overall, just the abortion part.

I'm not sure Melinda Gates needs support or otherwise mind, given that the Foundation that she represents has more cash than a lot of state economies...

I missed Mme Lindor's blog until yesterday. I've been reading it, just haven't posted about it. Also signed the save the children petition a couple of days ago but didn't post about that either.

I'm not a great one for just posting 'great blog' or 'I agree' or 'signed/done' - I tend to wait until I have a bit more to say before I post. Maybe that's part of the reason there doesn't seem much interest. I wonder if those threads got lots of hits but not very many posts?

VG - no, but the summit has been, and Mme Lindor's blog was a sticky at the top of active convos.

I was just wondering if the reason for low interest within FWR was due to a perception that Melinda Gates is pursuing an anti-feminist agenda?

Personally, I hadn't heard of MMe Lindor's blog until today. It's not been posted on this board until today AFAIK.

FWIW I think Melinda Gates had made the tactical move of not actively supporting abortion because she is trying to build a platform of "no controversy" around contraception.

The family planning summit B&MG is hosting is also with groups that fund and support abortion eg planned parenthood. So I don't think she is not engaging, supporting in some way?

Can I ask whether Meliinda Gates' stance on abortion is the reason why Mme Lindor's blog and the upcoming summit is getting so little attention on here?

GoodbutnotOutstanding You've put your finger on an issue that's being mulled over a lot in feminist-y spaces at the moment: are there any definitive feminist/non-feminist acts?

For me, I think there's a few. Even allowing for global cultures, religions, etc, I still think that being in a public role and restricting women's access to abortion is an unfeminist act. If Melinda Gates was funding abortion, women could have one, or not have one. Because she's not, they can't.

(This doesn't mean that Melinda Gates is not a feminist. Actually, I have no idea what she calls herself. But her contraceptive programme is a good thing, even if her ideas about abortion aren't).

Scroobiuspip, that's a very good point, I know I'm very much guilty of analysing things from a westernised stance without taking other countries into consideration. Which is ridiculous as I'm a teacher of English as a Second Language, so I spend my whole day with non-British people.

comrade I agree that it gets messier when you are in a powerful position. I am not in a powerful position and grateful that I am not in a position to make policy on this subject. I joined the conversation because Melinda Gates was being discussed and ther had been comments that she isn't a feminist because she is refusing to fund abortions as part of her work with contraception. Yes she has stated publically that she won't be supporting abortion because it's against her beliefs, but surely that is just to explain why she isn't funding it as a 'contraceptive' option. She isn't actively trying to stop women having abortions if they are happy with that decision, she is just not facilitating it with her funding. If other people feel that strongly that it is necessary then they can provide the funding to provide it and she will not take any steps to prevent that. I don't see how her position can be seen as unfeminist when she is doing so much to help so many women (even if it is just by providing the funding, I don't know how much personal involvement she has).

pip that's my thought as well. If people define feminism too much then there is a real danger that women will feel unable to identify with that label. I would think that would make it very difficult to join movements for other parts of the feminist ideal as you may well consider them for feminists, which you aren't considered to be. When I was younger I spent time in India and met a massive number of women that consider themselves feminists, campaign for women's rights yet do not support abortion. Of course there were also many women that do support abortion over there, but the ones I met tended to be the middle/upper class women that have been exposed to far more western values, the working class women did not tend to want the right to abortion but definitely wanted the right to access contraception. I would imagine you are right in thinking that would be the same in other countries that have different values to our western ones.

Good - you raise some very valid points.

There will be many women across the world who feel the same as you. I'm thinking across the middle east and Africa for example - women who would describe themselves as feminists and campaign for women's rights in their own countries but who could not support abortion, either personally or acting in a public role. I wonder whether there is a danger defining feminism too prescriptively (or too much by western values) that it rules out the very people it could be helping?

My feeling WRT other women supporting abortion is that you can hold the private thought that abortion is wrong but condemnation of women who make that choice, active or public support of those who wish to restrict women's rights to access abortion or otherwise in any way try to restrict a woman's choice regarding what she does with her body your position is feminist.

This is, in my mind, one of the few areas of feminism where choice really is a feminist issue. Abortion is about choice. The ability to choose whether to remain pregnant or not. You can choose never to have an abortion if you are in that position and be feminist. In any way restricting that choice from other women is anti-feminist.

I think it does get messier once you are in a very powerful position through riches or political power. I think the ability to access abortion is an important feminist goal and those who are powerful should support this as a way of making women's lives better regardless of whether they would choose to have an abortion themselves.

I'm not actually asking for any legal restrictions, I'm not campaigning against abortion, I'm just saying that I can't support it. In the same way that you are saying you can't support restricting it.

I don't want any woman to be forced to have a baby against her will, but I think there are better ways of reaching that aim than taking away the life of a baby. I completely support any form of contraception that anybody wants to use and think it is absolutely vital that it is free and readily available without any restrictions, but for me abortion is not contraception, it's past that stage.

Yes the important thing to me is that I didn't have an abortion. Other people in the same situation have had abortions and many of them did not want them but felt they couldn't argue.

I don't know that I'm really asking for other people's acceptance of my views, I'm happy with what I believe. I just find it surprising that people could say that my stance is not compatible with feminism and wanted to find out if everyone thinks that or if it is only some people. It seems that it is some people and others are happy to recognise my views as feminist. Thank you all for answering that question for me.

GoodButNotOutstanding, I really am saying this as gently as possible because your experiences should not have happened and it's wrong that they did, but for me (and it seems like for you, too), the important thing is that you didn't have an abortion.

If abortion was restricted then those doctors could not have said what they said to you. But the flip side of it is that someone else might be forced to give birth when they don't want to.

Like yellowraincoat said, I'm not an authority on who is and who is not feminist. It's your journey. But I could not support any legal restrictions on abortion, no matter what the circumstances.

I'm sorry for your loss.

I'm not saying that I would force anybody to have a baby they don't want, I'm saying that I can't support them in having an abortion. I have no problem with other people providing that support if it is truly what the woman wants rather than a decision she feels is expected of her. It is perfectly legal in this country to have an abortion, I am not trying to change that, I would never condemn a woman for having one, I just can't support it. I would be perfectly comfortable providing support and counselling after the fact though.

Norma I know that it is traumatic to be pregnant after rape or abuse, but I can't see that it's the baby's fault. It most definitely is not the victim's fault either. So it's an incredibly difficult thing to consider as there are 2 innocent lives being greatly affected by the actions of a horrible, horrible man. I still don't think I could support an abortion, even in that situation. I would definitely not condemn anybody making the decision to terminate a pregnancy in those circumstances but I wouldn't be able to support them either if that makes sense.

I think my views on this have been changed by my own experiences in the past. I have been in the position of being advised to have abortions on 2 separate occassions, even though I had never said I didn't want the babies. My first pregnancy was when i was 18, my boyfriend tried to book an abortion for me (he was not a boyfriend after that, I left that day), the doctor I saw assumed I wanted an abortion and started to arrange it even though I hadn't mentioned it, then when I said I was keeping it he actively tried to persuade me to terminate and was quite hostile when I refused, I went to different doctors after that. Dd1 is now 12 and I cannot possibly imagine how my life would have turned out without her in it. The only people that supported my decision were my parents.
The second time I was told I should terminate a pregnancy was only 5 months ago, so is still very recent and raw. An unplanned pregnancy which should be dc3, which we can't really afford, we haven't got room for, etc. It ended in miscarriage which was completely and utterly devastating.

So while I don't condemn any woman that makes that decision, I think making abortion readily available and socially acceptable (even if it is still taboo to talk about it openly) has not been a good step for feminism. I see from my own experiences and the experiences of friends that women are now being pressured into abortions they don't really want because a baby will be an inconvenience for the people around them.

Good - I agree that access to and education about contraception should be greater. We need to stop this sniggering attitude we have to sex in this country, it seems to be a contributing factor to women having unwanted pregnancies. So I definitely agree on that point.

I could never agree on a woman being forced to have a baby she doesn't want for whatever reason.

good how do you feel about abortions for rape or abuse victims? (genuine question, not trying to inflame)

I am perfectly happy to promote contraception. I certainly want women to have choice about whether they become pregnant or not, but in my view there is a huge difference between preventing a pregnancy and ending a pregnancy. So widely available contraception is a very positive move imo, but widely accessible and socially accepted abortion is not a positive move. I want to see women be able to avoid the position of needing/wanting an abortion in the first place.

yellow - I don't want to see women forced to be in a biological state that men would never be in, but I also don't want to help someone to take a life. I know that a lot of people don't see it as a baby yet but i see every pregnancy as a baby from the moment of conception and as such it is precious. By all means prevent conception in any way possible if pregnancy would be that bad for you, but once conception has happened then I can't get past it being a baby.

Eats - yes i do realise that I don't have to pass an exam, but it seems to me that quite a lot of feminists wouldn't recognise me as one, even though the vast majority of my opinions fit with feminist ideals.

I recognise you as a fellow feminist good - with some strong additional beliefs. To me they are not conflicting ones. I think it would be great for as many women as possible to get behind the "no controversy in contraception" campaign. How do you feel about positively promoting contraception so that it is much more widely accessible to women throughout the world ?