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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prepare yourself for a fit of rage

261 replies

squeaver · 22/06/2012 11:33

The EU has spent actual money on a campaign designed to interest girls in science.

this is the result.

OP posts:
NoComet · 24/06/2012 09:26

AssertiveConfused

I saw it as you need heals and a short skirt to distract a man from his work.

No way did I think of the girls (and they are silly fashion obsessed girls) as scientists.

I worked for years in a lab and we did have young women who were not sterotypical geeks. They wore fashionable casual and sometimes quite sexy clothes.

But a skirt you can't bend down in and 6pm heels. For fucks sake!

pickledsiblings · 24/06/2012 08:37

kickass, I thought the shoe shot showed the girl as being assertive, it reminded me of that Olivia Newton John shot in Grease at the beginning of 'you better shape up'.

Thumbwitch · 24/06/2012 00:46

pickled - I'm glad that you comment was mistakenly addressed to me - it wasn't that I misunderstood what you said, more what on earth it had to do with me! Now I get that it wasn't for me, it's all fine.

There are better ways to engage girls than a powder-puff advert that looks like it's selling make up or perfume, IMO - principally by showing lots of different women scientists doing their thing and making it look interesting! Making nylon at school was fun, bringing in a coke can so we could make our own expanding foam out of it was fun, soda volcanoes are fun (although a bit young for teens perhaps).

pigletpower · 24/06/2012 00:41

I can't see the video it's coming up with a privacy sign.

kickassangel · 24/06/2012 00:09

So if the premise of the video is that women are invading the male space and taking over science, maybe even bringing a bit if life and color to it, then there are ways to have a similar video without endorsing the male gaze.

E.g. The shot immediately after the man looks up at the women doesn't have to show their shoes. He could see them out of focus, as if he doesn't 'get' why they're there, then they could snap into focus, and draw up a microscope next to him.

That would show them taking an equal position next to him, if they're framed in a two head shot, then they are partners who are collaborating, not having to turn the lab pink to make it acceptable.

Do you see how the film language would change the meaning there?

You could have a series of situations like that, with different types of science being shown. Like those images of what does a scientist look like? So a man and woman doing field work, mixing stuff in a lab, working on equations, computers etc. a lot of research isn't very visually attractive but there are some situations which signify science where women could be seen as equals with men.

Himalaya · 23/06/2012 23:46

So what would your alternative video be?

I agree with Grimma - it should have conveyed something of how interesting science is - not this woeful stereotyped sub-bodyform crap.

I guess their brief was to use no language so it could be a Euro-ad....but still there is lots you could do.

For me science is about "no limitations" ....no limitation to the scale from sub-molecules to the universe, no limitation to what can be studied, no limitation to who can do it.

They could have done something like this with girl message hidden in it....
htwins.net/scale2/

GrimmaTheNome · 23/06/2012 23:14

What's the difference with medicine? Is it because it's 'caring' and people-related or is it because - doctors being largely state employees - there is better provision for career provision for women versus the private sector? Maybe a mix of both. There's a lot of female vets too - but I guess vet practices are independent so its more up to the women writing their own scripts. Probably its a combination of what is attractive to young women plus what allows them to be retained and progress in a career.

pickledsiblings · 23/06/2012 23:11

So we need a really cool soap about engineers lily Smile.

lilypainter · 23/06/2012 23:06

pickledsiblings, I agree medicine related sciences don't have a problem attracting women. I'm sure you're aware that the media show lots of examples of women working as doctors (ER, Holby City etc etc etc), which will encourage science-minded girls to consider medicine as a socially acceptable career path for a woman. No need to worry about upsetting girly stereotypes if you're studying sciencey subjects because you want to be a doctor...

Lazily copying and pasting from my post on another thread about this video -

other areas of science do have problems. I work in engineering, have met lots of professional engineers, and the majority of professional engineers are men.

IME, the engineering field with the most women is chemical engineering, and even there, I'd say less than a quarter of chemical engineers are women. Proportions get much less with other types of engineering. I've only ever met one female civil engineer.

pickledsiblings · 23/06/2012 22:32

How come the number of medical students/graduates is roughly a 50:50 gender split?

pickledsiblings · 23/06/2012 21:46

DD started blogging yesterday (inspired by although much less adventurous than 'NeverSeconds') and has posted this blog about the video. Perhaps some of you could offer a few gentle comments to help her formulate her ideas? I do think the point about some men ending up in science although they may not have wanted to is an interesting one. TIA.

edam · 23/06/2012 21:46

I think teenage girls know full well when they are being patronised.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/06/2012 21:01

Yes - that was the aim. And in that it succeeded, it was discussed on PM on R4 this afternoon; the reaction was much as here - that it was misguided and disliked by people who'd seen it. But its not clear that the people who are talking are largely the target audience.

pickledsiblings · 23/06/2012 20:45

The point of the advert is just to get people talking, it has no real place in the campaign which thankfully appears to have more substance. I'm assuming that it is all carefully orchestrated and that the jobs page will be updated at a crucial time...whenever that may be

SneakyBiscuitEater · 23/06/2012 20:38

I remember a campaign 'not all chemists wear white coats' when I was in 6th form which struck a chord with me. It showed both men and women scientists doing 'cool stuff' some in a lab setting but others in the field. I did a chemistry BSc and analytical chemistry MSc...etc... and am now a principal lecturer.

If I personally had seen this EU video at age 16 I would have hated it as much then as I do now. Perhaps I wouldn't have been their target audience then either as I was a confirmed maths and science geek from early on.

Nowadays I do a lot of outreach stuff with schools both at University, in schools and via the RSC. I think hand on real world science is a great way to get girls and boys fired up with science but this glorified tampax/makeup advert is not.

mumblecrumble · 23/06/2012 20:21

Girls lose this when the media tells them to worry more about appearance, boys and their appearance some more.

Is that what the lipstick is all about???

Holy crap.

mumblecrumble · 23/06/2012 20:19

This makes me want to weep.

A lipstick???

A feckin lipstick?????

lipstick????

GrimmaTheNome · 23/06/2012 20:13

I'm not sure I know any girls who don't like science when they're young. Even the 'girliest' loved kitchen chemistry and bughunts, making and flying model aircraft etc when they came here.

At what stage do they lose this? (I don't know, DD and her best friends haven't lost their interest).

belgo · 23/06/2012 19:59

Yes that too GrimmaTheNome Smile

The first science I remember learning was at primary school, when I was about 7 or 8. I helped set up a weather station in the playground, and participated in the daily monitoring.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/06/2012 19:57

I was interested in science because it was so darned interesting!

belgo · 23/06/2012 19:56

and of course the lack of such an influential celebrity culture.

belgo · 23/06/2012 19:54

I've been thinking what made me interested in science when I was a teenager:

Teachers that made science interesting
Fun field trips to the coast etc
A curriculum that involved lots of practical experiments.

Through the media:
Reading the New Scientist and National Geographic
The Christmas lectures that were on every year.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/06/2012 19:49

So what would your alternative video be?

something with a mix of girls - probably reasonably cool looking ones, not Amy from BBT - doing some real science. e.g. Girl at computer, show screen and instead of FB there's some sort of molecular graphics. That kind of thing. Not quite as straightforward as the ones now showing (which are fine in their way).

What I want to see is when the content of Dream Jobs appears - is it going to include details of family-friendly career structures?

pickledsiblings · 23/06/2012 19:14

I'm not ignoring you kickass, I'm just not sure I agree with you.

So what would your alternative video be?

kickassangel · 23/06/2012 18:48

Pickled, are you deliberately ignoring what I'm saying?

It isn't whether the girls are pretty, but that a group of adults, attempting to promote sexual equality, have actually put together something that promotes sexual stereotyping, and aims for the lowest common denominator of femininity in a way which actually promotes sexual INequalities.

That is what is so sinister - that we are all so used to the degrading stereotypes that we actually USE them and therefore confirm them even when trying to oppose them.

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