what draws you to this part of MN, particularly if you are a man? and if you dont support feminism?

Got you.

It's not that it isn't a possibility, but we/you are all human, there is more of a motivation than that. The snort was at the idea that we kid ourselves we can operate entirely rationally, divorced from known/unknown/unacknowledged self-views and motivations.

"and that the answer to a lot of men's issues is more feminism"

But feminism is firstly about addressing issues affecting women.

Hully, why isn't dispassionate intellectual interest a possibility?

It affects everybody's lives, but they aren't all here.

How do you see yourself then?

Juggling: ""I think I am quite feminist. I agree that the traditional structure of society is detrimental to men (as well as women) my brackets!

I think to be a feminist you'd need to put that the other way round ?"

Thanks for the reminder of one of the reasons I don't self-identify as a feminist.

no, it affects my personal and proff. life.

You might want to get that snorting thing seen to.

I think it is interesting and reasonable to discuss the idea/ option of the feminism boards being for women only. To consider how this would change them and what effect that would have.

Obviously this can make individual men feel unwelcome, and indeed the suggestion can be prompted by what an individual has said. But I don't think individual men should take it too personally - it's more ideological than that, springing from the type of thing beejeezus said in her last post.

Interesting that you say ...

"I think I am quite feminist. I agree that the traditional structure of society is detrimental to men (as well as women) my brackets!

I think to be a feminist you'd need to put that the other way round ?

If they aren't goaderz, and don't think of themselves as "good guys," why else?

Dispassionate intellectual interest?

Hully - massive speculation there on men's self-assessments and motives. Bollocks as well but there you go.. fwiw I don't see meself as 'one of the good guys' at all, and some fwr posters may agree with that. I think it's when some posters post a load of old discriminatory bollocks, or personal 'attacks' that things can go the shape of the pear.

Juggling

Would feel more positive about your post if you had decided you could say you were a feminist. After all, what's not to like ?

I think I am quite feminist. I agree that the traditional structure of society is detrimental to men as well as women and that the answer to a lot of mens' issues is 'more feminism' (as one of the writers on Jezebel put it). But there are people who write on this board who'd say I'm not a feminist because I don't agree with elements of their opinion.

I'm generally up for an argument, but it's obvious that there are some posters in here who do want this to be a women-only space and I haven't read enough of the folder to know if that is the general consensus or not. So that's why I don't post.

I think if men are on/in here they ar elikely (aprt from the GOADERZ) to think of themselves as the "good guys" and hence get upset at what they perceive as "attacks" on them/men

No one likes feeling attacked so then the defence begins and then the stop making it all about you menz etc etc

You need to be thick-skinned in any political forum that I have ever attended. No reason why in here should be any different.

Bejeezus, our kids are also mixed race, although it's pretty subtle in terms of appearance. I had to google BME to find out what it was . Do the forums give you anything useful? I am not aware that my kids have any issues with regard to this. Did you have specific incidents, or is it just to gain knowledge? (off track slightly, sorry).

yes, quite a lot in common with UDTU. If you slide past the tiresome 'rape apologist/male-stereotyping that goes on there's a lot to learn (like a lot of the rest of MN).
I've never self-identified as a feminist though have been 'accused' of being one in rl. I like the acts of 'doing stuff' that make a difference to peoples lives, rather than being an internet warrior. Often the level of debate in FWR is higher than in other sections, sometimes pitifully narrow-minded.
Am also a dad with a 12 yo daughter.

"I prefer it when ..."

We're not writing for your benefit UDad - though maybe for your daughter's

Would feel more positive about your post if you had decided you could say you were a feminist. After all, what's not to like ?

I had a not dissimilar initial experience UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername.

But then I think you have to be thick skinned, generally, on MN especially if you're a man.

You may not have meant this dad. But many of the feminists on here don't just discuss things, but do campaign, volunteer, etc as well. Putting feminism into action is I think most feminists on here would agree, absolutely cruciual. But to campaign effectively for example, you do need to understand the nuances of what you are camapigning against e.g. porn, to be effective.

So talking on here isn't just navel gazing. It is absolutely essential to discuss things ifwe are going to take effective action.

...far more effective THAN discussions...

Aargh.

bejeezus - absolutely. The species is doomed to one unhappy generation if women ever get equality.

I read this folder (and the US site jezebel.com ) because since having a daughter I'm interested in what women face in their lives and what I can do about it.

Do I support feminism? There's clearly different ideas on what feminism actually is, so to some the answer would be 'yes' and to others the answer is 'no'.

I've only posted once here (to get some feminist input on an issue regarding my daughter's upbringing). And whilst I did receive some useful suggestions on (a) what to do, and (b) what to do about my own attitudes and behaviour, there was some hostility to the fact that I was a man - even though I was asked a question and I answered it, I distinctly remember the comment "I love it when a man tells me what to think" (even though my response was pretty much identical to that put forward by women writers on Jezebel). So it was not really worthwhile contributing any more if my very presence was going to lead to a flame war.

As for content, I prefer it when there's actual concrete examples where action is being taken to academic discussions. Demonstrations that succeeds in getting lads' mags covered up and out of eyeshot are far more effective in discussions about how many angels can dance on the pinhead of the patriachy, as far as I'm concerned.
But then I suppose this is another incidence of men telling women what to think

Back to lurking.