scottish feminists -

Notnanny. So on reading one part of a page of a large web sight you need all you have to to dismiss what they say. Given that they are based in Thailand (something that I did not know) I cannot think of a more appropriate location considering all the forced workers who are taken to Bangkok for sex work, hotel work, cleaning jobs, and other service industry jobs.

Sorry x posted with you eats, I am sure if I made it sounded like those trafficked need to be sent back I did so by mistake, I agree all people trafficked for what ever reason should be given asylum status as I cannot see how it would be possible for them to return to their own country and not be worse off.

Vulnerable women are coerced into prostitution because it is an easy way for men to make money with low risk. One of the women I know who used to be a prostitute is borderline in terms of learning difficulties. She doesn't have lwo self esteem, but she is vulnerable.

As long as prostitution is a relatively easy way of amking money, women like her will be coerced into prostitution

Eats. I think I am right in saying that no one has said that prostitution is anything other than exploitative and dehumanising. The debate seems to be the best way of reducing it till it no longer exists. I like what you say about the third world, in many ways we were told part of the war in Afghanistan would be to curb the opium trade by allowing farmers to grow other crops. Unforunatly this has not been as successful as hoped.

The same type of attitude needs to form part of the strategy for giving women other means to control their own lives. Economically impoverished women, women who are lead to believe that they have no skills and no hope of employment, women who see themselves as baby makers, women who have little or no self esteem are always going to be preyed upon, the same as all vulnerable people are preyed upon by stronger bullies. This is why I argue that criminalising is not enough it is not a solution, it probably will force women in to more dangerous and ultimately life threatening situations. Look we are already aware that they are commodities being trafficked, bought and sold. My chief worry is that the life of each of these women become worth less and so in order to make profit for those who control them, the market becomes more extreme.

Absolutely agree with you OldLady. The care system stinks.

Taken from the GAATW 'About Us'

GAATW sees the phenomenon of human trafficking intrinsically embedded in the context of migration for the purpose of labour.

GAATW therefore promotes and defends the human rights of all migrants and their families against the threat of an increasingly globalised labour market and calls for safety standards for migrant workers in the process of migration and in the formal and informal work sectors - garment and food processing, agriculture and farming, domestic work, sex work - where slavery-like conditions and practices exist.

This is an organisation that exists to protect workers and they compare sex work to farming. They are based in Thailand, where sex work is simply another kind of work. The 106 NGOs are supporting GAATW's work in this context.

Lurker - Trafficking is already illegal. So it is obvious more needs to be done to tackle this. Criminalising the women who are trafficked and sending them back home, often to be retrafficked, is obviously not going to help.

Yes, notnanny, women (and men) coming out of care are vulnerable. So we need to improve our care system so that young people coming out of the system do so with as much chance of a good start as any other child. Not vulnerable, unsupported and fearful, so they depend on others who then abuse them.

I did not run from answering the burning issue of my gender although since I sound like a man I am not sure actually knowing I am one makes any diffrence.

I am still perplexed however why that should be of any relevance unless in some reverse sexism only females have a voice? In which case can I point you to another thread on the feminist boards talking about why men post on this area on mn

I agree that in the 3rd world providing a way for women to earn money in alternative ways, would make a big difference.

But I suspect I am different from some posters on here in that I actually know women who are ex prostitutes - and not through political stuff. For 2 of the 3, making it illegal for clients probably would have stopped them getting in to it. For the other - an ex girlfriend who ran away from home at 14 and then lived on the streets - proper care for vulnerable girls would have made a difference. Legalised brothels would not have helped them avoid or escape prostitution.

I post again the link to a group who have SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE, made up of ngo's who work with trafficked women. Now I know that it is not popular to say that feminists need to listen to others, but I would have thought over 106 ngo' some working with prostitutes all over the globe might actually have things to say that are from experience and knowledge not just feminist bashing perspectives.
www.gaatw.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=627:ngo-joint-statement-the-untoc-5th-conference-of-parties-18-october-2010-&catid=102:Briefers&Itemid=22

Oldlady, women coming out of care are vulnerable women, that's why they end up being used by men - it's easier to pick on someone with problems. What the international pimps do now is pick on younger women, who are vulnerable in a different way. Hence the 16 year old Albanians.

Eatsbrains, it can be harmful to women, same as war, disease, poverty. We sometimes forget for millions of women there isn't a health service, benefits for single parents, or widows. The highest and fastest money they can make is via selling sexual services.
For some it's either getting married, becoming your husband's property and having no rights over yourself, or selling sex and having autonomy over your life.
The training programmes some ex prostitutes are placed in allow them only jobs that give a subsistance living and working long hours in poor conditions. Start a charity which pays Third World women the equivalent of their prostituting wage every week and they will have real options to leave and make a new life. IMO, that's a far more realistic way to make real changes and reduce women in prostitution.

The women most damaged by prostitution tend to have pretty shitty backgrounds, having been in care, and/or are addicted to drugs. So, improving the care system would be a start.

So how does those arguing against this bill propose we get rid of prostitution?

As does trafficking.

Okay so everyone is agreeing that prostitution is harmful and not an empowering choice then? So the issues is how we get rid of it?

We know from places that have liberalised prostitution, the amount of prostitutes have increased. So that doesn't seem to work.

As we already have laws against rape, but we seem to fail to convict an awful lot of rapists.

'As it stands if a prostitute is robbed, forced against her will to perform an act she does not wish to she already has the protection of the law.'

And how is that working for them?

but "underground" won't help the women involved! It will make it more dangerous for them.

But you can think that prostitution is harmful to the women involved without agreeing that abolition is the right way to resolve the difficult situation that is a tangle of all sorts of issues. Who above is supporting it as a great lifestyle choice? I don't see anyone saying that in this thread.

comix 'underground' is exactly where it should be.

I don't understand why anyone can fail to see that prostitution is harmful to the women involved. To those supporting it - would you be a prostitute? I know I only would if I was totally desperate.

LeithLurker seems to speak like a man and therefore must be one? Blimey. That's like getting one of those internet tools that checks your blogposts against god-only-knows-what and decides that you're 74% likely to be a man.

FWIW it's perfectly possible to be a woman who is not in favour of sex work abolition, and without being pro the sex industry either. A friend of mine worked for Scot-PEP for many years and I trust her views from the street much more than the arguments on here that say that outlawing sex work will fix things. It won't, it'll (continue to) drive things underground.

Dittany, are you sure all, or the vast majority of men who buy sexual services are insisting on no condom use and if refused will force the woman to do so ?

Reasoning from your belief would suggest there was an almost 100% rate of STIs and HIV among those involved in prostitution as no man wanted to use a condom and women were powerless to say otherwise. Going some way to perpetuating the long held belief that all prostitutes are dirty and diseased. The last set of stats I read on the UK suggested the lowest rates of STI's were found among those who worked as prostitutes, compared to the rest of the population, due mainly to a high percentage using condoms. Sex education, the understanding of how STIs are contracted and passed on could be the reason the rates are low and all parties want to protect their health.