Is sexual orientation a choice?

True - but I think that an example such as childcare responsibilities. There was a big thread on this recently. If men started to decide that they would work part time so they could pick their child up / go shopping / appointments etc then that would have an effect on how women and men are perceived at work and their career might not be as affected as much because men also face the same problems.

I think something like that needs men to change their attitudes towards work and childcare. Women can make a big point about it but it needs men to alter their attitudes. It also needs companies to change their policies.

Just an example. It's different from setting up DV shelters or the right to vote - it's an attitudional shift. The momentun can certainly come from women but it does need men.

WW - Changes come about by working with others to bring about these changes. Nobody can fight everything, so we all prioritise what we fight for. I prioritise women. Very very few men do the same

Enim - My point was that change has come about through women. it was the suffragettes taht fought for the vote - not a group of men and women together. It was women who set up the first DV shelters and campaigned against the general beliefs about DV not mena nd women together.

That doesn't mean taht I think men can't get involved in these campaigns - they can. But the truth is that every major change i can think of has been fought for and won by women.

Although it might not be the way you were made, but socialisation. The nature versus nurture debate.

How do you change men's attitudes without change taking years?

I think if a woman came to 21st century England, she would be amazed at the changes and attitudes that have happened.

But new problems have arisen - such as porn and body image which were probably not a big problem 400 years ago.

Then if you look at the rest of the world - attitudes still lag a long way behind.

How to bring about the desired changes in the world is the basis of feminism.

I do think it needs men to be on board. I think a lot of things need to change. I can see the changes but I have no idea how change comes about.

Agreed sunshine

Yes its a choice to follow through with your feelings
No its not a choice on what feelings you get :)

E.G Its not my choice I am atracted to men the way i was made
But it is my choice to take action to be with men :)
Simple as that really

All the major changes that have happened e.g. votes for women, DV being seen as a real crime, equal pay act, etc, have happened almost exclusively because of the work of women. Yes men may have passed laws, but it si womenw ho have believed passionately in the cause they fought for and who have put in the work to change things.

Black South Africans didn't need white people to overthrow Apartheid? So what about white Western countries that imposed economic, cultural and sporting embargoes? You really think that if we in Europe and the USA had not pressurised the whites in power, black people would have succeeded? It changed because even white people could see it was an evil, flawed philosophy.

Eats - Your analogy only works up to a point. If large numbers of white people were not made to realise that apartheid was wrong, it would not have been able to have been overthrown without a civil war, and due to the power differentials, that was a war that black South Africans may not have won.

Also, look at things like the Truth and Reconciliation hearings - they wouldn't have happened without the input of white people.

Every social justice movement needs allies to succeed, IMO.

I don't think it did need white people - white people in general, were forced to accept the changes.

In terms of educating men - how long have women been trying to do that? And yet still 1 in 4 women are raped, many more are sexually assaulted, etc etc. If we rely on educating men we will still be having the same discussions in 10,000 years. Yes education can bring about changes, but they are so bloody incrementally small.

I think you'll also find some men have less confidence and give way to women who try to dominate. I know plenty of men like that.

I think a personal relationship should be based on the person you are attracted to - at whatever level be it physical or emotional.

Eats - Your analogy only works up to a point. If large numbers of white people were not made to realise that apartheid was wrong, it would not have been able to have been overthrown without a civil war, and due to the power differentials, that was a war that black South Africans may not have won.

Also, look at things like the Truth and Reconciliation hearings - they wouldn't have happened without the input of white people.

Every social justice movement needs allies to succeed, IMO.

I think that ultimately it did need white people to abolish apartheid. The whites were in charge and it was ultimatlely De Klerk who got rid of it.

The pressure might have come from the black majority but they could not have done it without force or the caving in of the white minority.

I do think it needs males to recognise things are wrong and to alter their behaviour. If more males took on childcare (as an example), took on more part time work - would that not have a major effect on women and career prospects?

Sexist behaviour need men's behaviour to change.

So men behave in a certain sexist way - of varying degrees - because of the patriarchy, that they also help to reinforce. Women will behave in a different way because of patriarchial society. So my female partners are more likely to have less confidence, to give way to men trying to dominate, etc.

So that difference is important to me in deciding which sex i want to have a personal relationship with.

Eclectic - i think everyone has sexist attitudes. I think because of patriarchy men have more power and therefore are sexist. It might seem a subtle distinction, but it is different. And i do see the difference in personal relationships, which is where this thread started

And yes women can play a large part in controlling other women's behaviour by reinforcing sexist attitudes

Enim - Compare it to apartheid. Black people in South Africa didn't need white people to overthrow apartheid. Yes there were some white people involved - good more help. I think about the overthrow of patriarchy in the same way. Its good if men are involved, but we don't need them. What we do need is more women to recognise the patriarchy and its affects in our society and to work to overcome this.

One of the myths about RadFeminism is everyone just talks. Actually what I have learned very quickly is that their is rightly an expectation from other RadFems, that you are involved in actual work to challenge and improve things for girls and women.

Eats, you didn't make it clear earlier that you thought everyone was sexist?

So we've come a long way from "all men are sexist" to "Everyone is sexist" :)

Society has a lot to answer for in the way we are brought up. I look forward to a time when society changes its views on many things.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"

Gandhi

Him - I agree that everyone has sexist attitudes. The difference between men and women is that men also have male privilege.

We are all affected in our beliefs and behaviour by the society we are brought up in. We can try to overcome this, but I don't think it is possible for anyone to do this totally

Don't you think we need men to fight the patriarchy?

I know the word "need" has implications - but can the system of sexism and male privilege be altered without having men on board?

Men need to change their behaviour. How can this be done without men?