Is sexual orientation a choice?

Beach - Yes but Robin is still noticeable by his absence

Namechangeguy forgive me if I'm incorrect, but are you a man telling women that you know better about their state of oppression than they do?

If so, I agree with Eats, perfect opportunity for RobinGoodfellow to act feministy.

namechange - And I have been polite too

Yes some things have improved - because of feminism and feminists. But lots hasn't. There is a book - the equality myth you might find useful to read.

Education is important - but girls and women still have lower status in society and are still discriminated against.

• girls called whores and sluts for behaviour that boys are praised for?
• the wide availability of porn that is abusive to women that is watched by teens?
• rates of dv against girls in relationships with boyfriends is worryingly high and ormalised and excused by many girls
• women increasingly having surgery on their genitals to "improve their appearance" etc.

I like the spectrum idea of human sexuality. That seems quite helpful, and likely to lead to the most understanding and tolerance all round.

And no, I am not advocating 'all is well, what are feminists worried about', before that accusation is thrown at me. There is still a way to go. I want a fair and equal society for everyone.

Although I think we're having two different arguments here.

Eats, i have kept this discussion on a polite level because I am interested in your ideas. However, I fell you are regurgitating feminism 101 rather than actually addressing points. If we were discussing life 50 years ago I could not dispute your points. However, life has moved on. My daughter is looking to pursue science A levels, and then maybe on to university, where she can fully expect to out perform male fellow students. What happens after that - well, we will see!

The fundamentals for a fair and equal society start with education within a sound legal framework. Your points about how she is expected to behave are woolly. The display of male models with perfect pecs (and a full head of hair ) are prevalent within the media. There are men's magazines telling me how to lose my gut in 30 days, or how to beef up to conform to some stereotype of male physical perfection. At the same time there is Gok Wan telling women how to be comfortable in their own skin on prime-time TV.

My daughter had the option of football at school, scouts as well as guides and all the athletic outlets that my son has. She is fortunate though. Not everybody has these options, and it isn't perfect - yet. But to harp back to life as it was in the 1950s is disingenuous.

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a-changin'

Oh, ok, that's a fair point.

I meant respond to posts above like from namechangeguy asking basic questions about feminism

Respond how exactly? And how do you know I haven't/don't?

As Beach said, this is very basic feminism. I don't mean taught in terms of being sat down and told things. But girls are taught they are less imortant by:

• the way girls are expected to be more well behaved than boys
• the way women's bodies are routinely displayed for enjoyment in adverts, etc
• children's stories/toys/ programmes/films where the boy does exciting important stuff and the girls are there in a supporting role

Robin - If you are serious about supporting feminism and fighting patriarchy, a first step would be to respond to posts like this and take the time to educate other men. I am disappointed that you haven't - although sadly not surprised.

Or not.

What happens when that diagnosis is out of date?

Ouch.

I probably deserve that.

'All boys are taught they are more important than girls?' I would also take issue with this as a sweeping statement. It would not account for girls achieving higher academic results in schools and universities.

Otherwise, are teachers saying 'boys, you are more important but I am going to teach the girls to a higher level'? That doesn't make sense to me.

The difference RobinGoodfellow (as I'm sure you are aware because your first post described how you are a man who tries really hard to be a good feminist) is that men have higher status than women in patriarchal society. That is the very definition of what makes a society patriarchal.

This really is feminism 101, so no doubt you are well aware of what this means with regards to the gender binary hierarchy, social order, status groups, identity politics, the politics of oppression, etc.

All classic politics of oppression really! So I'm probably teaching you to suck eggs as a feminist man with a genuine and earnest personal investment in the movement!!

"All grls and boys are brought up in a patriarchial society and taught beliefs and behaviour that supports this But they are taught differently"

Is this fact? Have you accounted for every single culture/society on a planet of 6 billion+ people?

Robn - All grls and boys are brought up in a patriarchial society and taught beliefs and behaviour that supports this But they are taught differently. As I said before girls/women are taught and show that they are less important and vice versa for boys Geder stereotypes ad the behaviour taught from these are dfferent for boys and girls.

So women and men do behave differently. And this is why, as I said at the beginning, I chose to be a lesbian

'The actual hows and whys of the specific actions will follow on pretty obviously IMO.'

You see, I think that this is the bit that might seem obvious, but isn't. For example, look at the gender pay gap. The obvious solution is to make pay discrimination illegal. Well, we (in the UK) have done that, but has it worked? The glass ceiling - women execs themselves are divided as to whether quotas are a good thing. Rape and DV - obviously make them illegal, even within marriage, but has that fixed the problem? Most definitely not!

So, if we know the problems, how do we fix them?

"If a society is based on the patriarchy, then yes boys will grow up with ideas and behaviour that supports this including sexist ideas."

As will the women. And neither can fully throw this off. So by your argument all women and men are sexist.

So why draw a line between the two?

Yes, I think lots of listening is the key.

Lots of listening.

No denial.

Relinquishing of privilege.

First step is reconsigning that a status hierarchy exists and that it is wrong.

The actual hows and whys of the specific actions will follow on pretty obviously IMO.

Nobody is capable of totally throwing off patriarchial brainwashing.

Girls/women are taught and shown that they are less important and boys/men that they are more important. And everyone is taught gender ideas i.e. what boys/girls, women/men are really like.

A boy growing up feeling female is still treated as a boy by those around him. Maybe an effeminate or non conforming boy, but a boy none the less.

Boys growing up in female dominant environments - first off all there is no guarantee that those women will still not impart patriarchial ideas or behaviour to the boy - even if they try really hard not to do so. My mum swears she treated my brother and I the same - she didn't. For example, at a really basic level, we both had chores - I was made to do mine, my brother was regularly let off his with feeble excuses.

Also parents are not by any means the only influence on children. School, peers, teachers, tv, toys, adverts, other adults, how they see society being organised e.g. who digs up the roads - all of this also teaches and influences children's ideas and behaviour.

If a society is based on the patriarchy, then yes boys will grow up with ideas and behaviour that supports this including sexist ideas.

Beach, I agree that that is partly what happened, but there also had to be real actions, firstly to induce an incumbent power to change (economic, sporting, cultural embargoes). And five lots of listening seems a lot .

It also needed full involvement of the dominant whites, who had to want to change. The black and coloured vote was incorporated into the existing power structure, as far as I know - two assemblies, like the UK.

I don't see it as a particularly radical idea, but I'd like to think it's a contested one. The comments you make above are sensible and something I check myself on on a regular basis - you're right in that they are ingrained from a young age, in men and women, but I also think (hope?) they're correctable.

What I can't work out is why (unless I've misread your argument) women are capable of throwing off the patriarchal brainwashing thing but men aren't.

You say that men and women get different messages and therefore develop in different ways - how? (I think that's what you meant)

And how do you know how those messages are interpreted? What about boys who identify as female growing up? What about boys who grow up in female dominated environments? What about boys who grow up in completely different cultures? Are they all going to be inherently sexist without hope of redemption?