Is sexual orientation a choice?

I have seen some of your stuff kim, and it is my first encounter of anybody part of the trans community. It has been a real eye-opener for me, so thank you for sharing. Your experiences are one of the reasons that I try (so far with abject failure) to ascertain what lies 'beyond the patriarchy'. My concern is that, with human beings involved, we might just replace one set of prejudices with another.

Oops, sorry Kim. Jumping to conclusions. Won't make the same mistake again.

I was just going to ask how many of the posters on here are men !

But do not despair Robin, you sound like a Goodfellow

Now only three men posting on this thread and we've managed to start talking about men having shit body issues.

The patriarchy wins again.

hangs head in shame, wanders off mournfully into the sunset

Sorry - I really didn't mean to be flippant there (which it was).

For both men and women arguably the strongest messages they get about what it means to be a man/woman come from the media, and advertising is the purest form of this - it distils those messages into a 15 second video or a single image and doesn't really go in for subtlety.

They play heavily on gender stereotypes - and in the process shape/reinforce those messages in the brains of everyone whose exposed to them.

The arguments Eats made about female body image are clearly true - but there's a growing problem with similar issues with men. Increased body dismorphia, increased use of cosmetic surgery, associated levels of depression, self harm and suicide.

I think what kim is saying is that there is no single male experience.

Advertising is the patriarchy's 5th column.

So basically it's not the patriarchy we need to worry about, but advertising?

I'm being a pedant now -5pts

Generally speaking you are of course correct.

Which exists.

I said 'Having said that, there are limits to my influence. I cannot control what she does to her own body once she reaches adulthood' and 'We have to educate our children to see through this media bullshit.'

Straight afterwards Eats said 'But I think you are ignoring or unaware of the affect of other influences in children's lives and this does shape their behaviour and attitudes.'

I have a feeling that you are not reading what I write, or you are wilfully ignoring it.

I am really going now. But penis enlargement pills are not the same as having actual surgery on your genitals to alter the appearance. The male equivalent would be to have surgery to remove veins on the side of a penis to improve its attractiveness to women.

Robin, some things are improving and some are getting worse, but I agree that we have a long way to go.

"And altering genitals - my point was that there is pressure on girls/women to alter the appearnace of their genitals for cosmetic reasons. There is not the same pressure on boys/woman. Surely being told that as a woma your genitals may not be attractive enough as they are, while men are not told that, is a pretty clear example that women have lower status in society?"

And this is why nobody has ever made millions flogging penis enlargement pills.

Robin - I have to go out now, so I'll leave you to carry on then

Beach, you are incorrect, and you are forgiven [smile ].

I never presume to understand another person's life experiences, especially someone I have never met. I am here to explore ideas.

I can talk about some of the experiences of my daughter as I see them. She is the person I have been referencing throughout. Other thoughts and concepts are not specific to an individual.

The one thing I did ask was for Eats to not regurgitate Feminism 101 to counter points that I had not raised.

I agree it is important that we try and give our children every advantage and that we bring up our children in a way that lets them be individuals rather than conforming to gender stereotypes. But I think you are ignoring or unaware of the affect of other influences in children's lives and this does shape their behaviour and attitudes.

And altering genitals - my point was that there is pressure on girls/women to alter the appearnace of their genitals for cosmetic reasons. There is not the same pressure on boys/woman. Surely being told that as a woma your genitals may not be attractive enough as they are, while men are not told that, is a pretty clear example that women have lower status in society?

I thought we were a team eh? I'm out fighting the patriarchy IRL - you seem to have Mumsnet covered.

Namechangeboy - yes, things are changing, but still a few generations away from anything approaching parity - and the way things are right now it could be longer than that. Anecdote tells you one thing, data says things are slowing down or getting worse.

Eats. All improvement starts with education. It is THE MOST important thing for progress. That is why society should be more equitable for my daughter's generation. Her daughters should have it even better. Eventually, it will be equal, and it will happen because it is the right and moral thing to do.

I have a son and a daughter (I'd be interested to know if you are a parent, but fully understand if you don't want to say). They do the same chores. They are expected to work as hard as each other at school. I have the same high expectations for each of them. Happily, my friends are of the same mind re their own children. They are all subject to bombardment by the media and peer pressure, but my job as their dad is to counteract this as much as I can. As I said to you before, what I do might seem insignificant, but it is most important that I do it.

Having said that, there are limits to my influence. I cannot control what she does to her own body once she reaches adulthood. We are all responsible for our own behaviour, and to say that women alter their genitals, their nose or their breasts purely to satisfy society's blueprint absolves them of any responsibility for their own behaviour. We have to educate our children to see through this media bullshit.