Is sexual orientation a choice?

Sorry, that was very long

Back in the 80s, I used to sometimes hang out with Julie Bindel. She was scary then and she's scary now

I don't know, it's one thing staying true to your radical politics - my views haven't changed all that much in 30 years - but it's important to grow in compassion and wisdom too. There was loads of sectarian nonsense going on in feminism in the 80s - and across the Left, actually - and much of it has been left behind, so it does surprise me when this anti-bi stuff crops up. I don't understand it and it angers me: it's so, um, obvious and purist and bullying.

There are loads of areas where my political analysis comes into conflict with my values: transgender is one, surrogacy another. Political analysis is important, but always less important than living your life by your values, I think: being respectful of others, open to new ideas, accepting that we may be wrong and all have much to learn.

I was writing that mainly because breasticles' post made me angry (for her, not with her). But also because I'm slightly peeved at the posters who have dismissed those of us who feel there is an element of choice in our sexual orientation. And this is not just about political lesbianism: I am not a political lesbian (in that sense: I am, obviously, both political and a lesbian). I didn't choose to be a lesbian in the way I choose a job, or where to live. But I think my sexuality was formed by a range of factors, possibly including being partly born that way. Am I a lesbian because I was raised with absolutely no positive role models of happy heterosexual relationships? Am I a lesbian because my early heterosexual experiences were troubling and difficult, or were they troubling and difficult because I am a lesbian? Did my feminism allow me to explore lesbian relationships from a position of pride and affirmation, rather than shame and guilt?

My openness to these possibilities (as well as my femme experience) has sometimes led to people accusing me of being some kind of faux lesbian. That really pisses me off, especially when it comes from people too young to even remember what it was like to come out in 1983. But whatever, after 30 years I feel confident enough in my sexuality to be upfront about this. I'm not claiming this is a majority experience: I know that the vast majority of gay men are convinced they were born that way, and I respect that. Far fewer lesbians feel they were born lesbian (though most probably still do). Of those that don't, I doubt political lesbianism is a big factor. I think it's more about acknowledging the layers of social conditioning, opportunity, personality etc that motivate our sexual choices. We need to talk about this in a more detailed and thoughtful way. And not just lesbians, but heterosexuals too.

I'm enjoying this thread, some really interesting points of view. And thanks for the links Ethel.

After saying I wasn't going to rise to it, I can't help myself.

As someone who finds both men and women attractive, and has had long term relationships with both, the article felt quite personal to me. I haven't taken it personally though, I've grown thick skin over the years! Also, the author comes across an embittered imbecile.

I remember as a very young child, 3ish believing that you changed gender back and forth every 3 years or so and I used to say things like "when I'm older and I'm a boy..." I used to have crushes on both girls and boys at school. I had my first 'wet dream' aged 8 or 9 (The original 'Juliet Bravo') and first sexual experience with a girl aged 11 (although at the time it was innocent and very accidental). As a child, I clearly saw sexuality as fluid, it never felt wrong to have those feeling. It only felt wrong as I got older - there was a lot of open homophobia and calling someone a lesbian as a general insult was extremely common. I didn't feel confident enough to be honest about my feelings so kept quiet and went out with boys, some but not all of whom I fancied. As I got older, and was having lots of awful one night stands with men (not a happy time I realised more and more that I was only really attracted to women.

Coming out as a lesbian was hard at the time but really all okay in the end. I positively identified as a lesbian for about ten years, having 2 long term relationships. I then fell in love with my male best friend. It felt like I had to 'come out' all over again. Reactions from people were so bizarre. So many of my friends made unpleasant comments. These were from lesbians, gay men and straight friends. Unfortunately I really fell out with 2 of them. "So you're bi then?" was a common question. I used to reply "I don't really like such labels, but go ahead, if it makes YOU feel more comfortable about who I sleep with".

I had a ten year relationship with him and he is the father of my 6yo DD. We're not together anymore. I am now perfectly happy skipping along, having random crushes on both men and women and am open to the possibility of a relationship with either. My DD and friends know my past and I'm very conscious of teaching my daughter healthy sexual politics. That's liberating, the fact that I have the right, the choice and the confidence to live my life the way it feels natural to me. To me, that's feminism. The article was the opposite of all that. To suggest to anyone, that they can't sleep with a person of their choice is abhorrent. I remember a long time ago being on the receiving end of something similar from a group of similar minded people to the author, who argued that lesbians shouldn't be having penetrative sex with each other! wtf!

Oops, sorry for the waffle

I think gay people can be homophobic, i.e. negative about their own sexuality and that of others.

DM article (sorry!): "I'm a gay man who opposes gay marriage. Does that make ME a bigot, Mr Cameron?" here

Widowwadman it is liberating that you don't have to live under the control of men in the same way. But I agree it restricts you and separating ourselves from men is not the answer.
Minitheminx, you can definately be gay and homophobic. Being gay is still seen as an undesirable thing in society and lots of people absorb that even if they are gay. I've been told by gay men that my bisexuality is me being greedy and not making the effort to choose. I have also met gay people who dont think gay marriage or gay people adopting should be legal.

Er no....you either like men or women (or both)...can't imagine changing and feel nauseous at the thought!

She's not homophobic. She bisexualphobic...

She doesn't want to accept that there are alternatives out there, to one binary thing or the other.

But that does seem to be the main problem with too much feminist thinking. Too black and white and too much box ticking.

How can Bindel be homophobic if she is a lesbian?

I don't know if other people make choices, I don't know how conscious we are of our subconscious choices any more than I know what part of my choices are effected by the prevailing norms within society, or what choices are socially conditioned because there is a two way dialectic between choice and outcome.

I don't think Bindel is reducing sexual orientation to just choice but I think she is drawing attention to a very complex two way dialectic between people and their environment.

Even if we accepted that sexual orientation is just a cognitive choice like which pair of shoes to purchase, it still doesn't, in any way make one choice superior over the other.

The way I am understanding this, is that Bindel is saying that some bisexual women and men are fetishsizing lesbianism and reducing it to an object of titillation for straight people.

No she's saying that bisexual women shouldn't sleep with men as who they sleep with is a political decision and that they aren't committed enough to being non-heterosexual and feminist if they sleep with men. Men are the enemy.

Its you are either with us, or against us attitude. Its got nothing to do with fetishsizing. Its about a 'guilt trip' and suggesting that bi-sexual women are sexual tourists.

Its totally disrespecting the fact that some people just aren't on either 'side'. It seeks to make enemies and MAKE you choose. Why should bisexuals conform homosexual OR to heterosexual norms? Its placing a judgment and a telling you how you should behave. I personally don't feel in one or other camp, and thats not accepted by anyone.

You should respect people for who they are in any sexual relationship and be honest and upfront about who you are. Thats where it begins and ends as far as I am concerned. And there is room to do that and have relationships with both genders, without the need to 'prove' yourself to anyone. Any one you need to do that to, isn't worth respect in the first place anyway, as they can't accept you for who you are.

It's a horrible article all round, and pretty incoherent in it's argument.

I believed then, and I believe now, that if bisexual women had an ounce of sexual politics, they would stop sleeping with men

My understanding of the article and this line in particular is that Bindel is challenging the media and a certain way of thinking. The way I am understanding this, is that Bindel is saying that some bisexual women and men are fetishsizing lesbianism and reducing it to an object of titillation for straight people.

Her article is stupid, her 'lesbianism' may be a political choice, in which case she must be bisexual if she is able to choose which sex she wants to sleep with, the reality is that most gays and lesbians are just that and don't choose to be attracted to the same sex, they ARE attracted to the same sex. Why would anybody choose the orientation which exposes them to the bullying, abuse and discrimination that many gay people face? It is offensive to those who live in areas where the cultural/religious attitudes of their neighbours make it particularly dangerous to be gay. They're not doing it for politics, they're doing it because they are no more attracted to the opposite sex than us hetros are to the same sex.

The whole basis for the justification of homophobia is this lie of homosexuality being nothing more than a lifestyle choice.

If you are bi, you can have a relationship with a man, woman or indeed both, if that suits you...

You don't stop being attracted to one gender just because you are in a relationship with one, anymore than you can stop being attracted to the same sex, if you are in long term het relationship.

If you are bi you choose to be with someone long term because you love them and want to share your life with them. Not because you are proving your political worth. Same as anyone else. I like people for who they are, not whats between their legs, thanks. And I don't go for the over generalised stereotyped "men are this" and "women are that", that article is trying to spew out and reinforce.

Therefore this line IS very offensive. I believed then, and I believe now, that if bisexual women had an ounce of sexual politics, they would stop sleeping with men. as essentially it paints bisexual women who chose a relationship with a man as being traitors to the cause.

So in summary my long, intellectual analysis of that article?

Its UTTER Bollocks

i am guessing namechangeguy that they thought bisexuality was an anomaly and that maybe if there were no societal preferences either way people would be gay or straight. or they could have meant that bisexuality was not fully letting go and being gay or was just experimentation rather than a 'real' sexuality. i have no idea - i'm not psychic but i think of several subtler interpretations than they thought they didn't exist re: they're thick or crazy as you seem to be implying.

why put 'guy' in your name btw?

HhP - agreed. That is why I mentioned context.

Nobody has answered my question though. I will assume it's because the article is a load of guff.

Oh, Krumbum, was she only talking about bisexual women?

Ah

I wonder if she feels bisexual men should only have male partners??

It's facile to assert that it can't possibly be a choice because people would die for it. That just doesn't follow. Religion is a choice that people die for. Defending territory is a choice that people die for

I take this on board. Thanks.

I am, then, left with little to draw on but personal experience and that of friends. As I've said, I thought I could be lesbian and would prefer it. For me, though, it doesn't work as sex. I have clearly bisexual friends, clearly gay friends, clearly straight friends - male and female for all - some trans friends and several straight friends who may not really be all that hetero.

I've always thought of sexuality as a continuum/spectrum type of quality, as most human qualities are. Some are born with great artistic talent, for example; some can develop artistic ability; some have no artistic gift at all. There can't be many people who insist everyone falls within the middle group - neither gifted nor devoid - and therefore could be a great artist if they only chose to. I get the impression this is what Bindel wants to insist with sexual orientation.

In doing so, I think she disrespects the diversity of human nature.

She's saying that bisexual women have a choice whether to sleep with men or women which is true. And that it is a liberating thing to do as a bisexual to choose to have relationships with only women. It doesn't mean you become a lesbian because you are still attracted to both men and women but you can make a choice who to be in a relationship with. I can see her point but I don't like separatist feminism, I don't think it will help so if that the core reason then I don't agree.

let's face it we NEED barriers to sexual choice given the 'choices' some men make and the things they can be turned on by.

there is a big difference between being able to love and fancy members of the same sex and being sexually indiscriminate.

disagree nickname. i don't have the capacity to be turned on by children for example. i wasn't advocating no barriers to sexual choice. just less heteronormative pressure.