Is sexual orientation a choice?

Thanks, was not sure what the story was, will look it up, ta.

He talks about his bisexuality, and biphobia, here www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b014pw7d/Its_My_Story_Getting_Bi/

Tom Robinson's said in an interview that walking down the street he'd be attracted to quite a high percentage of the men and just a few of the women, but he happened to fall in love with a women. He also said that his vision of what 'gay' meant in those days was more what would be defined as 'queer' now - ie. you don't have to be exclusively attracted to the same sex. To his great annoyance, the media reported at the time that he'd "turned straight".

He's not really 'hetero married': like many people in mixed-gender relationships he's bisexual.

Not sure this will contribute to the political analysis here, which is fascinating, but some observations from my professional life and from friends and family..

Used to work with ex-prisoners , and found quite a fluidity in sexuality and behaviour amongst prisoners.Many men who are straight on the out had same sex activity in prison, was an unspoken but not guilty secret in a way, just something that happened there but not when free.

Amongst women there seemed to be a greater proportion who discovered same sex activity AND RELATIONSHIPS in prison that were more fulfilling emotionally and sexually. They maintained that change when out of prison, and identified themselves as lesbian..as one said to me ''no more dicky for me, girlies all the way now''

Also friend has twin boys, and an older girl. The boys are physically identical, truly impossible to tell apart, but now at 17 one, who always played with clothes, dressing up and with girls, is now out as gay, while the other is macho personified with all 'manly' traits on full bore, as they sort of have been since childhood.

So, dunno what that says really, maybe for some it is innate from the beginning, whilst others have an element of choice...did Tom Robinson ever explain going from stridently gay to happily hetero married? (making some assumptions there..sorry)

Beachcomber - I think it was on the patriarchy thread that you posted a Rich quote about " psychoanalytic denial of the clitoris". I think there is a general denial of the clitoris, not in individuals necessarily, but in the public sphere ther is an equation of the penis and the vagina. They aren't analogous, for the majority, in actual sex terms. But in cultural terms, they are. And in porn and even erotica.

I don't know if that adds or detracts from the debate because I am slightly lost and am somewhat ambivalent towards Bindel and so can't yet draw anything sensible from her article. Although I would say that I could chose. It is an interesting topic to roll around my mind for a few days, I think.

Beachcomber - I find anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't do in bed both politically loaded and insulting. I suspect I'm not alone.

But it isn't just a load of tosh.

It is politically loaded tosh.

See I think the 'women don't like sex' is a double edged mixed up patriarchal load of hooha.

Mainly because what that really means is 'women don't like PIV sex with a man'.

Which is actually a very politically loaded statement.

GAG, being a lesbian doesn't mean you really, really like having sex with women or that they are any more sexual than anybody else. Some people really like sex and are very sexual and some are less bothered.

It isn't some kind of accomplishment to be a 'sexual being.' Some people are and some aren't. As for 'emotionally laden' - everyone on the planet has emotional relationships, apart from psychopaths I suppose.

Yes, to what you say Devora.

I think the concept of a lesbian continuum is liberating for a lot of women. It puts into words the feeling of solidarity that we have 'en dehors' of sexuality. And I think that is liberating for women who find themselves in a state of compulsory heterosexuality. It is a really generous and inclusive sentiment.

I don't think it is a passé sentiment. At all.

Rich's concept of a lesbian continuum has been heavily criticised over the years for de-sexualising lesbianism in favour of the idea that lesbians are just more into a warm fluffy sisterhood than other women. I don't disagree with that criticism. But I think the lesbian continuum has two useful facets. One is that it conveys that lesbianism is not just about sex, but that it is also about women really valuing other women, putting other women first. And that, at the time Rich was writing, was revolutionary.

Which leads to the second point, which is that what Rich wrote at that time was so uplifting and radical for young lesbians who had been told all their lives that they were sick and pathetic. Here was a woman who wrote so beautifully, so eloquently, telling us that it wasn't just that we were ok, that we should be tolerated, but that we were doing something beautiful and important. Plus, it allowed heterosexual women to find a language for talking about how they identified with and valued other women, too.

Its time has gone, but it was and is an important concept, even if you don't apply it literally. Ditto the concept from that New York group - was it the Radicalesbians? - that 'lesbianism is the rage of all women condensed to the point of explosion'. Taken literally, it is of course nonsense. But it conveys something that was very powerful and important in the 1970s.

Hmm - hence the term bi-phobia. Because people like Bindel, really seem to fear and encourage the fear of bisexuality and bisexual people.

Also, underneath it there seems to be a prescribing of sexual desires and behaviour into what is or isn't acceptable to her. Where the concept of "My Body, My Business" fits in to that I'm not quite sure.

Hmm - hence the term bi-phobia. Because people like Bindel, really seem to fear and encourage the fear of bisexuality and bisexual people.

Also, underneath it there seems to be a prescribing of sexual desires and behaviour into what is or isn't acceptable to her. Where the concept of "My Body, My Business" fits in to that I'm not quite sure.

Hmm - hence the term bi-phobia. Because people like Bindel, really seem to fear and encourage the fear of bisexuality and bisexual people.

Also, underneath it there seems to be a prescribing of sexual desires and behaviour into what is or isn't acceptable to her. Where the concept of "My Body, My Business" fits in to that I'm not quite sure.

I want to know where she gets the idea that bisexual women are actively promoting sleeping with men to lesbians. Based on what exactly? Women being unsure of their sexuality and experimenting is somehow threatening? Women are being 'traitors' for doing so?

I find it pretty backward feminist thinking if free exploration and expression of sexually is being frowned on here... just because they still sleep with men sometimes. I thought that women being judged for who they slept with was oppressive behaviour? Now suddenly its not. Er... what?

It looks like she wants to wipe out bisexual behaviour and identity, whilst arguing that lesbians are having their identity threatened by bisexual women!!!! Er... anyone else see the problem with that?

Its a total appeal to fear. Its a non-existant argument. Its un-cohesive and hypocritical.

Further thoughts:

There is this horrible stereotype that women don't really like sex (remember Stephen Fry's comments), we aren't sexual beings, we only engage in any kit off activity to get things from men.

This is a crap and harmful stereotype in many ways and I think the concept of political lesbians is just extending it to lesbians by removing/ obscuring the fact that being a lesbian means you really, really like having sex with women. Political lesbianism seems to shed that in favour of some emotionally laden form of separatism.

Why use nothing else but propaganda techniques through the piece then?

One after another.

At a quick glance I can see the following techniques:
Appeals to prejudice
Appeals to fear
Black and White Fallacy
Ad hominem attacks
Demonizing the enemy
Glittering generalities
Labeling
An attempt at Milieu control
An attempt at trying to obtain disapproval for bisexual behaviour
Oversimplification
Stereotyping

I think there are a couple more in there too. Not bad for a 200 word piece.

Does it matter if its an excerpt? Thats still 200 words without actually saying anything apart from blowing a lot of hot air, insulting people and using propaganda.

Like I say. No content. No argument.