Is sexual orientation a choice?

Okay.

Then could somebody explain to me how people are supposed to have political discussions and analyse society then?

Because I'm at a bit of a loss - if it is verboten to discuss anything that relates to anything that anyone might potentially take personally because they do it/like it/identify with it/agree with it/experience it/think it/feel it, etc, how are people supposed to discuss things that occur in society?

I'm a bit confused as to what just happened to this thread. It was trundling along not too badly, stuff was being discussed, not everybody agrees, people were chewing the fat. Then sAf posted some musings about sex/nature/socialization and now suddenly the thread is about what oppressive patronising meanies radical feminists are. Again.

I have said numerous times in this section that I have NO PROBLEM with folks disagreeing. Quite the contrary - it keeps things interesting. I do however have a problem with 'stop discussing this because I am taking a political conversation personally/disagreeing, and if you don't stop that means you are oppressing me' type posts.

I think your post is mixing up analysis of society and value judgements on individuals. Analysing PIV or anything else is not about judging individuals, it is about observing and commenting on societal patterns and politics.

I'm not mixing anything up. Do not patronise, belittle or suggest I lack understanding thank very much. Its rude and again very oppressive behaviour.

The comment was made that PIV was unnatural because it wasn't just for reproduction in humans but for pleasure and other uses. I disagree completely. I believe it is completely natural in many ways.

I think your post is mixing up analysis of society and value judgements on individuals. Analysing PIV or anything else is not about judging individuals, it is about observing and commenting on societal patterns and politics.

I'm sorry you find my posting of a definition patronising - it was purely intended to show what I understand the word to mean.

FWIW, I engage in PIV myself despite finding it problematic on a political level - and I have political discussions without finding them a judgement on my personal life.

Thank you Hmm.

When, on another thread here, I said that I found PIV enjoyable, I was told that I shouldn't find it enjoyable, because it's no different then being poked in the ear.
For me feminism is about liberation of female potential. I do not find someone being judgemental and critical of my sexual preferences in anyway liberating, it is the opposite.

Finally, WFT is it with all the whining and hints (or outright being told) to go elsewhere if you disagree with whatever's deemed as "the standard line". It's rude and tedious. This is an open board, everyone should be able to comment.
There already seems to be a far smaller number of commenters then days past and I'm sure certain attitudes are the reasons why.

I always used to defend FWR when it got a kicking elsewhere on mn, but I'm starting to think some of the critiques are very valid.

libertarian* even.

I find it oppressive when values are placed on thing and other things are devalued in a political way that undermines another persons experience.

I find the idea that PIV is unnatural by some feminists as a exercise of power. It places those who do value it and do find it natural outside of their group. It is drawing lines in the sand about what is acceptable and what isn't.

So yes, it is oppressive. Even by your own patronising dictionary definition.

To be frank, I regard vast elements of radical feminism as deeply oppressive and deeply conservative and reactionary rather than encouraging free expression and belief. I find it a very prescribed and narrow view of feminism that doesn't believe in liberation values. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, that as a bisexual I often found feminist thought on this forum very alienating. Julie Bindel's article and this whole business of PIV pretty much sums it up for me.

PIV satisfies one part of me. It comes very naturally. But it doesn't satisfy every part of me. Equally other forms of sex don't fulfil that either and they come very naturally. They are just different, and equally valid. I despair at the PIV business as it completely disregards my experience and the experience of many others.

I don't doubt that PIV isn't right for many people. Whats right for me, isn't right for them. Where I think it is wrong, is for others to make generalisations and say that PIV is unnatural. As if it is right for some then of course its a natural experience. That is oppressive.

Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.

It isn't about disagreement or nodding dogs. Just, yunno, discussion that doesn't have to be hostile because people disagree.

It IS oppressive when you suggest that something isn't natural when it very much is to a sizeable number of people. Its bonkers to put values on sexual practices whilst claiming you are for free expression.

Sorry, but its not a competition, and trying to explore subjects involves accepting that actually some people think that what you are saying is a great big heap of dog doo and pointing out the utter hypocrisy in those who claim to want equality and free expression is fair game.

You are welcome to keep discussing, but don't expect people to nod like the Churchill Dog.

And I despair at comments like yours Hmm.

I said at the beginning of the thread that I was hesitant about entering this discussion and comments like your one above is the reason why.

I'm sick of all the adversarial bullshit in this forum. I'm sick of the insults and aggression that appear when women try to explore certain subjects.

Chewing the fat on an internet forum is not oppressive. People throw this around like confetti whenever they disagree with someone. 'You're oppressing me with your political analysis and opinion I don't agree with'. Oh Please.

You know. Sex is natural. PIV is natural. Sex not involving PIV is natural.

For the love of god, stop trying to make one better than the other. All this catergorisation for the sake of fucking politics is just as bad as any bloody oppression.

I don't get why you can't see the utter hypocrisy in it.

swallowedAfly Sat 16-Jun-12 09:59:51
i'm dubious about the term 'natural' here - re: calling piv perfectly natural sex. there's really nothing natural about the way we have sex.

sex is for reproduction in our nearest relatives - coital sex was only engaged in when the female was in oestrus.

so whilst it's 'natural' to have piv sex for reproduction it's not really natural to do it for pleasure and all the other uses we make of it.

I despair at comments like this. I really do.

Possibly because I've never felt the need to conform in the first place. Being gay or lesbian was never a huge big deal after you got past age 17. And seeing as I never had a relationship before then it wasn't an issue. I've always seen it as other people's problem not mine tbh.

I never felt it was compulsory. Despite any prejudice. I think the word compulsory is far too strong.

in that sense engaging in sexually pleasuring activities for pure fun or relationship forming is just as 'natural' with same sex or other sex. it's the natural fulfilling of sexual desire i guess - who you do it with is irrelevant because it's not for reproductive purpose anyway.

thinking out loud but yeah - think you have to distinguish between sex as reproduction and sex as pleasure, identity, bonding, etc.

compulsory heterosexuality even.

i'm dubious about the term 'natural' here - re: calling piv perfectly natural sex. there's really nothing natural about the way we have sex.

sex is for reproduction in our nearest relatives - coital sex was only engaged in when the female was in oestrus.

so whilst it's 'natural' to have piv sex for reproduction it's not really natural to do it for pleasure and all the other uses we make of it.

How can you not have encountered the socialization of compulsory sexuality?

One would have to have lived on another planet in order to escape it.

Er... I've never felt compulsory heterosexuality though. Ever. I either like someone or I don't.

I've always expressed the fact I'm bi, since I had my first relationship.

The younger friends I have certainly have never seemed to have had a problem.

I do think that there is an age element in all this.

RulersMakeBadLovers I did quote "psychoanalytic denial of the clitoris" on the patriarchy thread.

It is from EthelMoorhead's link on this thread.

Beachcomber - I find anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't do in bed both politically loaded and insulting. I suspect I'm not alone.

Why are you addressing that to me GothAnne? I haven't said on this thread that I agree with Bindel.

I'm not telling anyone what sort of sex to have. I just said that the idea that 'women don't like sex' generally refers to PIV - and I think that is a)tosh b)politically loaded.

And I think the concept of compulsory heterosexuality, as outlined by Rich, is much more of an issue of 'telling people what they should or shouldn't do in bed' than Bindel's article.

And yet so many people have lined up here to give Bindel a kicking and call her names, but there has been remarkably little discussion of patriarchal compulsory heterosexuality and consequent effacing of lesbianism.

I am happy to say I enjoy hetro sex. Really dislike this PiV term as it makes perfectly natural sex sound like a disease. Never liked Bindel and yet again she says something to get people to talk about her. Egotistical and arrogant, thank heaven some sense has been said on this thread. Proud and happy mother who enjoys sex with my hubby... my only bi-sexual experience was a terrible disappointment and convinced me that I am happy with the PiV std.

Well, at the level of caring who any individual is having sex with, then I agree Custy that it's not terribly interesting.

But why people make the sexual choices they make, and what that means for their lives, is interesting and important.

And it's kind of harder to be airily dismissive when your whole adult people people have defined and responded to you on the basis of your sexual choices. Ignoring the issue is a luxury I have never been allowed to have.

seriously do not understand why anyone gives a shit who anyone else is or isn't fucking.