Is sexual orientation a choice?

Brilliant. Thank you for letting me know.

No I didn't fel harassed. but i asked the question to you in case Beach wasd seeing something I hadn't seen - so that is why I asked the question

Eats, I am referring to Beachcomber's post at 23:36 last night. She feels I am. I do not, but it's important that you don't feel harassed by me, as it's a serious point. Please let me know how you feel. For what it's worth, I was enjoying our discussion.

I would be interested to read that.

namechange - You tell me, are you harassing me?

about the perception/categorisation of male sexual orientation - from facial features, it was quite accurate apparently

obvs do not subscribe to that journal myself

Eats, if I am harassing you in any way I will shut up right now. Please let me know either way.

No Alameda - what is that?

Yes you are right, society will in general be a lot better.

have not read thread (just scrolled for a thousand miles to get to the bottom) but wondered if anyone had seen the studies about 'gay faces', apparently is in journal of nonverbal behaviour?

I'd go on step further and say it's about benefitting society and making society a better place.

It does not exist to benefit men - but men will benefit (well some men :) ). Women will benefit.

Ultimately society benefits in the long run.

namechangeguy what is your point?

Your posts come across as being harassing to EatsBrainsAndLeaves.

And that strikes me as highly inappropriate given the context. (I'll spell it out to you - as a man addressing a woman on feminist issues).

HTH.

Men will get some benefits from women's liberation in terms of gender roles/expectations. But women's liberation does not exist to benefit men, it is about benefitting women

Right-o.

The focus in feminism is very much is on women and a liberation from attitudes towards them towards an equal role and place in society, as far as I see it.

I also see a freeing from gender expectations of women as a natural part of this. Separate to this is a freeing from gender expectations of men as well - separate to feminism but in someway inexorably linked as liberation of women requires men to free themselves from gender expectations of how men are supposed to behave.

The reason I talk about the liberation of women rather than equality is because talking about equality inevitably ends up focussing on men rather than women. Feminism is about women. Also equality is a bit of a misnomer. There are differences between men and women - women give birth, can breastfeed, etc - so women do need some things in society to be different to accommodate their needs.

Eats, you said this at 11:39 - 'It is the right thing to do. Women should have their needs met in society too. It would be selfish if I wanted women to be in a better position than men - I don't. '

So if you don't want women to have it better than men, you want them to be equal don't you? How is that not equality then?

Feminism does benefit men in some ways. But feminism is not about equality. It is about the liberation of women. The focus is very much on women.

Well, I thought it was about the betterment of society by overthrow of the patriarchy, because the patriarchy damages both men and women. So therefore it is also about improving the lot of men, in a roundabout way. Something like that.

The challenging of gender expectations?

Breaking down gender expectations?

Allowing men and women to be treated equally and not to be expected to follow a gender ideal? Not saying - you're a woman so you must stay do this and who do you think you are trying to do that?

Getting rid of the notion "You're a women so society will treat you like this"
"You're a man so society willl treat you like this".

I think that's liberation of people - maybe that encompasses more than feminism?

Of course every individuals experience is different. Perhaps would have been clearer for me to say that men have a higher status than women in a patriarchail society.

namechange - Feminism is about the liberation of women. It is about women. What do you think feminism is if you think its about more than women?

Are we not here to talk about society and politics from a feminist perspective? I thought that was a bit wider than just talking about women.

I'm back. Effeminate men/boys are ridiculed because they are viewed as like women.

But to be fair Kim, you have to compare gender non conforming boys with gender non conforming girls. And then you can see gender non conforming boys still have more privilege than gender non conforming boys. Teenage girls who are "masculine" are ridiculed, threatened and attacked.

As you know Kim from thread you have been on, rape and sexual assault is a very very common experience for women. DV is also very common. Being sexually harassed on the street e.g. comments about breasts, etc is also very very common. All of these experiences reinforce the message to women that they are vulnerable. The fact that so few people speak out about it, reinforces the message that they don't really matter.

And of course men can have bad experiences/pressure, etc, but we are talking about women here. This section of the forum is a feminist one.

I think I just heard her self-combust

Julie Bindel will be delighted this is how this thread has ended.