Quite shocked and disappointed by my friends' reactions. Am I being unfair?

Nickname you are being very rude, unnecessarily so. I agree with Ethel. Asking someone whether they have been in an abusive relationship is out of order. It is not asking them for their credentials and it has backed Frothy into a corner.

You are victim-blaming. This is the feminist section (a fact you seem to be well aware of judging by the number of threads you have suddenly decided to post on - all in this section). Victim-blaming is always challenged here. Using words like weak and strong with regards to how people react to abuse is neither helpful nor accurate or valid. It is also inappropriate on a support thread like this.

OP I hope the further developments are good for your friend. I think challenging your other friends thought processes is about as much as you could have done at the time. If you can speak to the woman separately then that maybe useful to her, if only to know that someone us on her side. She may not realise at this moment in time but something you say could hit home later on down the line (if she doesn't leave now). Best of luck.

Why not let Frothy and me speak for ourselves, Alphamum?

I don't recall you being part of the conversation, and a little knowledge is not so much a dangerous thing, but a waste of everyone's time.

ethel

I truly hate threads where people who have learned various media mantras think it gives them a monopoly on opinions.

It was Frothy and others who waded in with the whole, "you have no right to think/say this" theme, and "your opinion is a myth".

It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask for somebody's credentials when they purport to know what they are talking about and is taking an aggressive stance on it.

Frothy is perfectly capable of staying in this thread. Don't patronise her or do her thinking for her.

I didn't make any claims about highs for your experience did I? I'm not sure why you brought that up.

I didn't say anything at all about blame. The perpetrator is to blame. However the victim can be co-dependent.

Have you actually ever been in an abusive relationship, frothy? Because this all sounds more like theory than real life.

I kind of resent being told that my personal experience is a myth particularly by people who say they have no personal experience of the situation themselves.

There is a reward to being in an abusive relationship, there is a high from the apologies and intense periods in between the violence. There is a passivity in feeling powerless. There is a minor celebrity status to other people knowing about it. There is an element of ego feeling you can unbalance somebody to that extent. It is highly addictive and beguiling.

None of which means the victim is to blame, only that they have been effectively victimised and psychologically weakened.

Another example would be Natascha Kampusch who became complicit with her kidnapper/rapist and spent hours crying over his dead body in the morgue.

That is the nature of abuse I'm afraid. It's not pretty or simple because people aren't.

Yes I do know two such women Nickname. Two strong women who were abused by violent men, who had people ready to support them to leave, who were not physically prevented from leaving, and who did not, for a long time. I am not going to give details on a public forum.

I'm not sure what world you live in where women are divided into "weak" and "strong"?

And I am sorry if you have been abused, but you clearly need some help/counselling so that you can stop blaming the victims.

Ohhh, so DV victims are compelled to be abused?

What is it we say with regards to DV and rape?

Put the blame on the perpetrator. Not the victim.

If you have, then I suggest you read Pat Craven's "Living With The Dominator". Learn to stop blaming yourself. You'll find a new level of freedom then

An addicted gambler can lose their relationships, their homes, their friends, their health, their sanity, they can be driven to suicide, and yet still they are compelled to gamble, frothydragon.

That is not a million miles away from the woman who loses everything, but is still compelled to return to an abuser. It's often not fear or coercion that keeps people in abusive situations, but compulsion. And so it has alot in common with other forms of non-physical addiction. And women who find themselves in abusive relationships frequently have a history of other types of abuse from parents, previous relationships, school bullying, etc. Only 25% of abused women stay in them long enough for it to escalate into physical violence.

Can somebody give me an example of a woman with options who has let people mistreat her while she was strong? I don't mean she was strong before it happened and then she was weakened, nor do I mean she has become strong since it happened to her. I mean a strong person (with options, ie. was not coerced, or unable to leave) who allowed themselves to be mistreated on an ongoing basis.

And what makes you think I haven't been Kim?

Being abused is passive, thus not a behaviour. Thus, it cannot be described as an addiction.

A woman can still be strong despite being abused. I know several tens of women who were just that. I think it takes a lot of strength to carry on with life outside the home as if everything at home is entirely normal, and free from abuse. It takes strength to employ whatever you believe will work to prevent your abuser assaulting you. It takes strength to finally find the courage to leave, or to wait things out while finding the best time to leave.

You assume every DV victim has the capacity to leave. I've heard of survivors who were locked in the house, unable to leave. I've heard of survivors who had no support network, so couldn't leave. I've heard of survivors who had no means of communication who were unable to leave. Staying in an abusive relationship isn't a sign of weakness. It just means the victim, for whatever reason, cannot leave in that particular moment in time.

It creeps up on women but it is NOT addictive behaviour! If anything it's the man in these cases who displays an addiction to hurting women, hardly the other way round!

"I think it is the case that (mentally) strong women don't get abused. They may be attakced once, but not twice."

That's what you said Nickname. I honestly don't think chipmonkey is agreeing with you. Because you are wrong. And perpetuating myths about DV.

I have never been abused but my sister and best friend have - is this because I am stronger than them? Or because they were the ones unlucky enough to meet abusive men?

And you don't think addictive behaviour creeps up on a person slowly?

By saying that some men set out to break strong women you are agreeing with me. A broken woman is not a strong one.

It seems to me that you are disagreeing with what you imagine I'm saying rather than what I'm actually saying.

So you think a woman in an abusive relationship gets a sense of pleasure and reward out of being abused, the same way a gambler does from gambling?

Yeah... no. I'm actually lost for words.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, Nickname.
Abusive men up the ante very slowly. They don't start out being abusive and even the strongest of women can be taken in by them at first.
And strong women are the sort that think "It's not abuse because I'm able to stand up for myself and I answer back" not realising that just because you answer back and defend yourself doen't mean you're not being abused.
And I believe there are some men who feel that strong women are a challenge and set out to break them.

Addictive gambling yes.

Don't be lost for words, defend your stance against an alternative point of view to your own (preferably with some evidence rather than mute outrage).

Are we really putting "being in an abusive relationship" in the same category as gambling?

Bloody hell.

I'm actually lost for words.

"addicted to any kind of dangerous behaviour" "make better choices"

So by your reasoning if all women were "strong" there would be no abusive men?

Wow NicknameSchmickname what a hideous thing to say

"Healthier choices" WTF?!

I trust you have never been unlucky enough to go out with someone who happens to be an abuser. Because it would be his fault if he abused you, not yours for being "weak" you know.

Crap like this makes me so angry, I have just remembered why I don't lurk or post much in the feminist section!

As opposed to physically, yes. I don't mean by that that they have weak characters, I mean they are psychologically weakened by the abuse either before or during the relationship. Or would you say that a strong, healthy woman with options allows people to mistreat her?

Women do not leave abusive men when the abuse gets really bad, they leave when they feel strong and able to cope.

An abuser goes out of his way to either select vulnerable people or to psychologically weaken less vulnerable ones so they will stay. He recognises weakness is a critical factor in carrying out his control.

Except in the most critical situations where an intervention is required, the job of a friend who is concerned about somebody who is addicted to any kind of dangerous behaviour be that abusive sexual relationships, drugs, alcohol, gambling, criminality, is to psychologically strengthen them so they can make better choices.

So women who stay with abusive men are mentally weak Nickname?