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Original poster

Where do me opinions fall?

33 replies

sereneswan · 08/06/2012 11:01

I'm not an 'active' feminist. I just have my opinions and do the odd bit of reading online. My opinions aren't formed by any particular body of feminist thinking because I'm not really versed in it.

I'm feel particularly strongly about the expectations placed on the appearance of women, and my attitude is along the lines of 'if the boys don't have to do x, it's probably a load of oppressive nonsense'. Hence I have a very visceral dislike of heels, make-up, shaving etc. It's just a personal thing - that gets my goat more than a lot of other stuff. I don't really know why. Probably because my mother is incredibly appearance focussed and put a lot of pressure on me to look a certain way, and also because I don't wear make-up and get totally fed up with people thinking I should or treating me like I'm odd because of it.

My opinions extend to feeling that women who do do this stuff are 'letting the side down' and betraying women as a whole.

Anyway, everything I read suggests that my views are utterly outdated, if not downright unreasonable and I'm 'anti-femme' which apparently makes me horrible and now it's all about 'lipstick feminism'. Apparently the only reason women do this is for themselves and it has nothing to do with the fact that society generally expects it of them. (Frankly I don't buy this but I accept that I'm in a minority on that).

So, are my views fairly extreme?

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Original poster
sereneswan · 08/06/2012 14:46

I think there are far bigger issues than outward appearance

I agree bejeezus, which (ironically, perhaps) is why this issue gets to me so much. It's precisely because it's so unimportant that the obsession of the media and large parts of society as a whole with appearance (which the vast majority of the time equates to an obsession purely with the appearance of women, not men) strikes me as so damaging and so ridiculous and infuriating.

Not to mention the fact that making it matter so much when it shouldn't damages women incaculably in terms of self esteem. And low self esteem about appearance inevtably often spreads to become generally low self esteem. Not to mention literally the time and money spent by women to try to adhere to standards of beauty expected of them, which they could spend doing other things that they might ultimately find more rewarding and liberating. At the risk of sounding a bit conspiracy-theorist it does sometimes seem like as soon as we manage to get out of the house and into jobs etc society (to pick the least loaded term I can think of) finds a new way of trying to keep women insecure, preoccupied and obedient.

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bejeezusWC · 08/06/2012 13:25

Masculine roles differ across societies, but are always portrayed as not only different from but also superior to the feminine

i think its ok to be feminine-what needs to change IMO is that feminine should not be seen as inferior to masculine

bejeezusWC · 08/06/2012 13:19

another poster, posted this on t'other thread.
I think there are far bigger issues than outward appearance, and its so hard to determine whether it is due to expectations or if it is choice;

Beachcomber Fri 08-Jun-12 12:12:26
finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/faq-but-men-and-women-are-born-different-isnt-that-obvious/

Masculine and feminine traits have been culturally placed in opposition to each other, and claimed to thus complement each other and result in harmony when men and women are constrained within the accepted sex roles. Masculine roles differ across societies, but are always portrayed as not only different from but also superior to the feminine.

Gender essentialism is the assumption that women are naturally like this, while men are naturally like that, and nature made it so and anyone who deviates from that pattern is a freak. Most commonly it comes in the form of ?women are naturally submissive and men are naturally dominant?.

Plus wiki is not too bad on femininity although it doesn't explore the masculine/feminine hierarchy in any depth.

Harry Enfield on femininity. Women know your limits.

bejeezusWC · 08/06/2012 13:16

Im kind of like you-in theory-in practice I like to be free of bodily hair and i like the hair on my head to be all 'swingy' and shiney Smile

but (just been saying this an another thread) I tried really hard to discourage my daughter from being stereotyped into dollies etc...but she LOVES pink/glitter/fluff/kittens etc...she loves getting dressed up in frocks and pesters all teh time for high heels (too young yet). She also plays rugby and football, and loves that too

I think its wrong to EXPECT girls to be 'girly' but equally I dont think it should be viewed as a 'bad thing' (which was my POV until I had my daughter) I think it is a feminist stance to ridicule 'feminine ladies'/assume they are vacuous and brainwashed?? Or maybe I am out of date too? is this not current thinking?.....its the subliminal message i get

MrsClown · 08/06/2012 13:07

In my opinion, this is why the aspirations of many women have gone down the toilet. They think hanging on to some bloke's coat tails is a job! They make me puke quite frankly and just put up with any crap behaviour from the bloke to keep the money. I mean FGS who in their right mind would forgive their partner for having sex with prostitutes when they were in a relationship. Its a very high price to pay for being rich. When I was in my teens and probably into my 20s I was sure I was going to change the world but young women dont seem to feel like that now in general, though I know some still do.

MrsCog · 08/06/2012 13:06

Hmm interesting one, I too dislike the cultural expectations surrounding women's appearance, but I don't go as far as you. However, I will only use make up/clothes etc. to enhance how I feel rather than to project a certain image/expectation if you see what I mean.

For example, I realised around 6 months ago, that men do not really clense,tone moisturise/have a day and night moisturiser etc and yet their skin rarely looks any worse/older than a woman of the same age. So I completely dropped all skin care products other than soap or oil to wash my face with if it's feeling like it needs washing and then a spf sun cream for if it's sunny/I'm going to be outdoors a lot. I have saved SO MUCH MONEY!

namechangeguy · 08/06/2012 12:57

This idea of expectations placed on the appearance of women - -where does it originate?

On the front of the Mirror today is a fiancee of one of the England team footballers. She is dressed in her best bikini, and accompanied by a 'WAG' headline so beloved of the redtops. Her fiance will be a multi-millionaire in his early twenties, and can look forward to earning many more millions in the next few years.

I see pictures like this and wonder - why does she do it? She can't need the money, and surely there are better thing to do with your time than pose in your skimpies. Without any financial pressure, what can induce an educated Western female to think that being a WAG (wives and girlfriends of footballers for the uninitiated) is a useful occupation?

Original poster
sereneswan · 08/06/2012 11:02

Yeah, that would be 'my' in the title, not 'me'.

Fail...

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