Where do me opinions fall?

Hi sereneswan, just wanted to say that feeling let down when a woman engages in patriarchy-pleasing behaviour is understandable. I can feel it too. But, I know what to blame.

And psst...a free version of Beauty and misogyny was linked to on another thread.

I think those were very eloquent posts, Victor. I have bookmarked this thread so I can use them as a basis to argue this very point.

Oh, and classist. There was a very telling article by a woman who was one of the first editors of Zoo (or Nuts, I forget which). She described an office full of men, and herself, all of whom were middle class, all of whom were making a fortune out of working-class girls posing semi-naked and all of them HORRIFIED at the prospect of their wives, daughters, sisters or any other nice middle class female friends following suit. 'Nice' girls don't get their kecks off in Zoo, you see - that's for working-class girls who are presumably thick and have no other option. How delightful.

No-one makes a free choice. We don't have freedom: we have agency (which is the power to make choices). But the options that we choose are dictated by the society in which we reside, the family we grew up in, the subculture we identify with, etc etc. My choice to be a feminist isn't a free choice; my choice to wear make-up and shave my legs (or not) isn't a free choice. They're just a choice. If I lived in a different society my choices would be quite, quite different.

The footballer's girlfriend presumably posed in her pants because our society rewards women who do that. Her reward was the millionaire footballer, the pictures themselves, the good feeling she probably gets when she looks at them because our society values women on their looks over any other quality. I don't blame her for choosing her choice: the patriarchy is bigger than she is. I blame the patriarchy for making that choice the best choice for many women and thereby creating a beauty standard that is unrealistic, ageist, sexist and racist.

According to research the global forecast for men's grooming products is to reach over $33 billion by 2015.

Men are buying into it as it's no longer seen as a 'feminie' trait to take care of your appearence. There are far more men in the gym trying to achieve the 'perfect' ripped torso, which they think appeals to members of the opposite sex and many more stores have popped up which are geared towards selling men's clothing

To the OP - I think you are probably of Rad Fem leanings. A great book on this subject is "Beauty and misogyny" by Sheila Jeffreys which I would definitely recommend you read.

Actually, I posted that about the football just after the camera panned around the England crowd. Sorry, I didn't make that clear. I don't think the fans are following the footballers, are they?

I do think the suits and ties stipulation is nonsense, btw. And thankfully dying out, slowly. Although I have a hunch that trend is not always welcomed.

Rulers - and your point is? Footballers are now a representative sample of society? If footballers do it, Joe Blogs does it too?

I'm working in an office, and the dresscode for men is way stricter than for women, as there's plenty of casual women's wear you can get away with in the office, while there is no way around suit and tie for blokes,

WW, are you watching the footy? There's male facial hair EVERYWHERE!

And again, ties don't actually HURT or restrict movement!!

Yes there are some smaller expectations on men in terms of some work places (I don't think that is a positive thing) but you cannot even compare it to what women are expected to do in terms of grooming. Is that not obvious? Clean shaven men is not standard. Many men have facial hair. But even so again how does that compare to makeup, hair styling, hair removal, make up, high heels?

Removal of facial hair for men is not pretty expected. I see loads of blokes of all ages every day with varying degrees of facial topiary. In fact, I notice it now because of previous claims on this board that men had immense pressure to shave. Loads of them resist. In fact, there's a whole month (Movember) where facial hair growing for men is encouraged and celebrated in the name of charity.

As for the OP, you might find this thread interesting.

Yeah, because wearing a suit and a tie is so bloody comfortable, especially in warm weather.

And maybe they're not using as much make up, but removal of facial hair is pretty expected.

Widowwadman that is ridiculous yes men are expected to be clean, and that's about it! They are not expected to spend time painting their faces, ripping hair out of their bodies, wearing shoes that hinder movement and cause pain. It is significantly more that women are expected to do to even be seen as passably presentable. Amd the things men have to do do not hurt and weaken them.

I find your point of view rather patronising.

I also don't buy the old trope that it is only women who are expected to groom themselves.They groom differently, which explains the difference in market sizes, but it's not true that a man who is not looking after his physical appearance would get away with it any more than a woman, especially in professional contexts.

Judging a woman who is into grooming, make up, fashion and heels as "letting the side down and betraying women as a whole" is as oppressive as expecting a woman to do all that stuff.

I don't see the point in trying to remove one form of dictate by replacing it with another.

But what do I know? I'm one of those choicy-choicy empowerful liberals.

It's interesting stuff! I don't think I would qualify as a radical feminist and I loathe the sneery term 'funfem' because gosh, most feminists I know started out somewhere around there and have radicalized the more they learned.

I certainly agree with this which holds that the choices women make in the context of a patriarchy are not truly free choices at all. - I also think everyone makes bargains with the patriarchy to survive. So, for example, I absolutely never wear makeup at home, nor to 'go out' or 'for a treat.' I don't enjoy it. (Love jewelry, mind you!) - and I hate wearing heels and never do. But for work, as well as a smart, clean, ironed outfit, I wear tinted moisturizer, powder, mascara and a smidge of blush and lipstick.
Because I enjoy it? No. But a 'subtly made up' face is as much a professional requirement in my line of work as a clean, ironed, 'professional' outfit is. for women. An oppressive beauty standard to which men do not have to adhere? Yes, absolutely. A bargain I'm willing to strike in order to do a job I really like? Yep, alright.
There are certainly bargains I wouldn't strike - someone patting my bum or calling me 'luv' or something - but a bare minimum of makeup is just on the right side of "i can bear it" for me.
Doesn't mean I don't think it's absurd, though. It's all about the bargains you're willing/able to strike. I think I can safely say if I was a bazillionaire I'd never wear makeup again, but job = bills paid.

And am presently sitting at home in a tshirt and shorts - hairy legs and all!

Hmm, I see what you are saying but I don't see that its letting the side down to enjoy wearing makeup and heels. I get a very simple, visceral pleasure from buying nice clothes and cosmetics, and don't feel conditioned into doing so. Aesthetics are very important to some people, others not so much. Excluding the media and teenagers, I don't think its that big a deal to most women I know. Most of my friends don't wear makeup day to day, and don't feel pressure to look like WAGs or TOWIE girls. Not wearing makeup or heels isn't some brave stand against society, its just a choice, I think.

Hmm, I see what you are saying but I don't see that its letting the side down to enjoy wearing makeup and heels. I get a very simple, visceral pleasure from buying nice clothes and cosmetics, and don't feel conditioned into doing so. Aesthetics are very important to some people, others not so much. Excluding the media and teenagers, I don't think its that big a deal to most women I know. Most of my friends don't wear makeup day to day, and don't feel pressure to look like WAGs or TOWIE girls. Not wearing makeup or heels isn't some brave stand against society, its just a choice, I think.

I agree with you, women are used like dolls for the desires of male sexuality.

I agree with you on this sort of thing "I'm feel particularly strongly about the expectations placed on the appearance of women, and my attitude is along the lines of 'if the boys don't have to do x, it's probably a load of oppressive nonsense'. " this is the root of it all.

OTOH I don't agree with you on this sort of thing "My opinions extend to feeling that women who do do this stuff are 'letting the side down' and betraying women as a whole." as all women (all people) are raised in a society that strongly pushes them in one direction and you can't then jump up and down on them for basically doing as they have been told all their life.

i also came here without having read any feminist books or anything but found that my opinions and views chimed most closely with those who describe themselves as radical feminists.

Apparently the only reason women do this is for themselves and it has nothing to do with the fact that society generally expects it of them. (Frankly I don't buy this but I accept that I'm in a minority on that).

What you are describing here appears to me to be the divergence between "fun feminism" (or "choice" or "liberal" feminism, which holds that anything women choose for themselves is feminist and empowering, whether it's pole-dancing or any other pursuit), and second-wave feminism or today's radical feminism, which holds that the choices women make in the context of a patriarchy are not truly free choices at all.

So regarding the question in your OP, my diagnosis is that your opinions fall in the second wave/radical feminist range.

You are not alone. Although definitely in a minority, societally speaking.