do you believe in the patriarchy?

Electricshock, what makes you think we are on a level playing field in the uk? Women are still paid significantly less and women are still raped and sexually assaulted. A fraction of mp's are women and society deems a women's worth on her looks and sex appeal, more and more women are mutilating their bodies through plastic surgery for the benefit of men. We are not equal yet, we are a long way off.

I think it was reading the Equality Illusion that tipped me over the edge. I always thought I lived an nice egalitarian life and that the battle was nearly won. Then I discovered FWR on MN and that book and realised that I was very, very wrong. And that many of my long held beliefs were just castles of sand. And I started the learning process. I love it.

I believe in patriarchy in some instances. However, there comes a time when you have to stop focusing on what could possibly oppress you and start focusing on you and women in general. There's no doubt it exists in some countries but in the uk, I think the playing field is level enough for us to stop focusing on it and start focusing on women and our potential in general. It's an evolving thing and dependent on which society you live in. There are different levels of patriarchy and in the uk, I don't see how it is relevant right now.

Too bad if it is too late for your dad Porto. If he takes the photo down because of something you said, that is a big thing.

Simply speaking out about sexism and misogyny is a powerful action.

Teaspoons, innit.

I don't agree with a lot of stuff on Shakesville, but I think the teaspoon thing is cool.

Ofc, there's evidence all around us all the time. I don't understand how people with logical brains can argue that it doesn't happen.

Porto - me too. Consciousness raising and low-level stuff is where I'm at until I find my feet. I didn't realise how much I had been taught that The Powers That Be decided things and I was just a very small cog in a very big wheel until I discovered feminism. It's not true. Big things can happen because of the focus even one person, let alone one with people behind them.

Hence - my dad yesterday posted some shit photo of a little girl struggling over sums on a blackboard, with the tag line "sod maths, I'll become a stripper" or something of that nature. My sister is a fecking maths teacher. Once upon a time, I probably would have ignored. No more. I told him it was completely inappropriate - and why. I think he is a lost cause though....

That's a good start Portofino .

The worrying thing is - a lot of men think equality exists. You get the quotes "Well, you wanted equality - this is what you get".

I'm not sure some men know what inequality looks like and keep on acting in their own way.

I also agree about how the way children are brought up by parents has a lot to answer for it. Imposing societies expectations on both sexes. Coupled with what a child sees, hears and observes. And no one brings other people up on sexism or gender stereotyping attitudes.

I remember watching Outnumbered when the mum had a go at her teenage son for making comments about a girls breasts. He then retorted with the fact she and her girlfriends were making comments about their builder.

A lot has to change - attitudes towards how we live our life and are expected to fit in according to our sex need to be modified.

I'm not sure what that world would be like but it's got to be a lot better than the one we have at the moment.

I have learnt to challenge, where I might once have let lie. I am working up to activism.

The aim of analysis is to organise women.

Talk of 'after the revolution' is a figure of speech - often used wryly as we know that the revolution is far far away.

Analysis serves to bring women together in united activism - it shows us that our experiences are not random individual events with no rhyme or reason, but systematic.

All the big feminist analysts were activists - feminism is a grass roots movement.

All the feminists I know in RL are involved in some sort of activism. Which is why we have rape crisis centres and DV shelters and marches and conferences and law changes and equal pay and support for trafficked women and women having a voice.

I don't know if you are an activist, but please don't assume that others are not.

So what are your actions to achieve that?

And why do you think the inequality exists in the first place? And why and how is it maintained?

Rulers - that answer doesn't make much sense, especially in the light of the negative comments which are made about "choicy choicy" feminists and those who want equality.

I personally want equality now. Can't get quicker than that.

Just how you want equality to look like, WW. It's just that some of us want it a bit quicker. To mis-quote a genius line - "What are we, limestone?"

What is complacent about the question what all this analysis leads to? I'm not complacent, I just still haven't found out what the aim of the analysis is, and the means of how to achieve it.

To me, a lot what is called "analysis" here, seems to be little more than navelgazing.

There's talk of "after the revolution", and "once male supremacy is ended", but nobody has actually outlined what that world is supposed to look like.

Loads of actions - how we interact with the world around us, the different points of view we throw into discussions, how we bring up our children, the noises we make when listening to a friend, the donations we make, the publicity we give news stories and our take on them, the (undervalued) strength we give to others by voicing opinions and viewpoints that aren't often heard. Oh, and getting laws changed. And refuges set up. And writing to the DPP to point out shit sentencing. It's the little stuff .

Your above post.

What gives you the idea that I'm just complacent?

Are you being serious WidowWadman?

Or just complacent?

The way we react to our partners. The messages we give our children. Last night I even took my dad to task over some of the things he had shared on FB.....I told him it was unacceptable. I would never have dreamed of doing that in the past....

Yeah, but it just seems to never go any further than analysis. What are the actual actions which follow the analysis, which are to bring about change?

I think the term 'patriarchy' is getting bandied around in a way that it just becomes a meaningless filler word. Dito 'political analysis'. I prefer the much derided strive for equality as it's more tangible than talk about some not-nearer defined post-revolutionary world.

Is it tangible though?

I mean without identifying why women are not considered equal as a matter of course (we clearly aren't).

I don't really see how a political movement is going to get very far without engaging in a bit of political analysis. How odd.

I think the patriarchy is very complex about who dominates whom and I think it is much much more than a simple statement than men oppress women.

Of course there is a class system and a caste system within patriarchy.

And to link it to slavery - did all white people oppress black people? Who was part of the system?

It is generally accepted that although not all white people actively oppress black people, white people as a group, benefit from white privilege. In other words, we benefit from white supremacy - we benefit from the oppression of people of colour. White people benefit from the social construct of race.

Basic politics.

(I mean, "I do" in terms of the thread title question, not whether I know why enimmead's SM stays with her Dad)

I do.

Mainly because I see, read or hear about the punishments and rewards of resisting or complying with the Big P every single day.

To miss out the "men" bit out of "rich, white men" running the show seems odd to me.