do you believe in the patriarchy?

But what if that discussion educated a number of others?

I would but I dont feel the need to discuss those issues, I believe they are wrong and I support through actions not meaningless discussion.

Obviously I care about fgm and forced marriages. But that doesn't mean that sexism does not exist here. Just because it is worse elsewhere doesn't take away from the fact that women are treated badly here too! That's like saying that black people were fine in America before the civil rights movement because at least they weren't treated like the Jews in the holocaust. Where you live is the place you can make the most difference. Every feminist I have met cares about sexism everywhere and on every level. And wants change for US ALL!

I agree with himalaya.

Ecletic, Rulers has fair point. This thread is about one thing. If you want to discuss FGM or forced marriage, then start a thread. You will get a good reception I think....

I am "she" in the OP who doesn't believe in the patriarchy

I do think it is a bit like religion. Religious people see evidence of god everywhere. Sometimes I get into discussion with someone about their faith and they say "god is not really a super human-like figure ('man with a beard') who answers prayers, it is more like all that is good in the world". Well I believe in "all that is good in the world" I just don't call it god, or ascribe it to a single cause.

The answers here that the patriarchy is all that is bad in society (or at least in relation to men and women) remind me of that conversation.

We could just ignore the differences and each understand patriarchy in our own way. But I think it undermines clear thinking about issues by giving pat answers.

When people say "the patriarchy loves/hates it when..." to support an argument which really means "I think it it is a bad/good idea to do this" it seems analogous to me to saying "god wants you to/doesn't want you to". Maybe it is just a short hand between people who agree with each other but I think it is sloppy - it stops people thinking through or spelling out why they think something is bad or good and arguing the point - because who wants to argue for the patriarchy?!?

There is a natural tendency in humans to want to explain things in terms of agency -goodies and badies, friends and foe. It is much more intuitively attractive to say that god created the world for a purpose than to say that it evolved through billions of purposeless interactions. Similarly it feels more "true" to think that inequality between
men and women is because men have chosen to oppress women, and women have been duped and overpowered, than to try to understand the processes of biology and economics which underpin culture.

Ultimately I don't think "patriarchy" is useful as a way of understanding and explaining the state of the world. It separates biology and society and treats them as two different things. That human males and females are relatively different (not as different as some species, not as similar as others) indicates that there has always been a division of roles between males and females that goes beyond pregnancy and BF (which relate to all mammals) and that there was some evolutionary advantage for men to grow relatively muscley and aggressive, and women to develop concealed ovulation (both expensive strategies in evolutionary terms, so they must have been advantageous -because "men were stronger and wanted to control women's fertility" doesn't explain things - it begs an explanation)

The biggest reason I don't believe in patriarchy is that it falls for the naturalistic fallacy that natural means "good" (and that naturalistic explanations are justifications). This is just not true.

The patriarchy explanation seems to me very like the myth of "The Fall" (except this time Eve is duped). The idea that there was a time when there were humans very like us in character, ability and physiology but without the bad stuff is a myth. If you build feminism on that myth it intellectually shaky, even if it's moral impulses are mainly good.

Rulers, that's rude. You have no idea of how I help other women against injustice. I would say I do my fair share. Honestly, try living others lives and putting yours in perspective.

Or you could, you know, start a thread if you haven't got your fight off the ground yet? Lots of experience of activism you could tap into.

Oh, I see. Can you link us to your campaigning, EclecticShock? Guarantee you'll get masses of support from here.

And yes, non-white people too. The ladder thing applies.

Im going to leave this thread as self pitying really isn't my style. Why don't you focus your efforts on those who are rurally oppressed like forced marriages and genital mutilation. The uk culture really has it good, if you can't see that...I'm sick of so called feminists on here whinging about pay gaps when women are being oppressed truely outside of their control on other cultures. No one discuss that much on here. This section is about self pitying rather than helpin those less fortunate than yourselves.

You aren't equal in the eyes of many (most?) of the population of this country, let alone in non Western ones. You do read the rest of MN, don't you? The standards you are expected to uphold as a woman (and because you are a women) are vastly excessive when compared to men and those are telegraphed frequently and loudly by popular culture.

Male dominated spheres of life (even if there are no logical reasons for them being so) are still areas where women have to be better than men (or make more sacrifices) to achieve the same level of success. I see it every day in my line of work (and I'm not competing, only observing - I have taken a different route for non-vagina related reasons).

Electricshock. It's not blaming others, it's looking at the problems and trying to change them. That's much more proactive than pretending it doesn't exist. I didn't realise that your few friends were representative of the whole population. And yes men do experience sexual assault on vastly lower scale and usually at the hands of men. Patriarchy is not a positive thing for the majority of men either and many men suffer at the hands of it too. But to say 'men get sexually assaulted too' is ridiculous, as though that justifies the thousands and thousands of women who have been raped? It still means women are treated as second class citizens.
I don't understand what your point is about your dad? Racism is fucking awful too and it is much harder for non whites as well as women to achieve highly. Ok so he did well in his field that's great, there's still almost no non white politicians, judges, editors, police; the people who actually control and shape our lives and it's the same with a lack of women. The people in power are white men. No point denying. Pretending it's not there doesn't make it go away.

Add message | Report | Message poster RulersMakeBadLovers Fri 08-Jun-12 21:58:25
You won't either. You aren't, whether or not you believe in the patriarchy.

Please explain?

You won't either. You aren't, whether or not you believe in the patriarchy or not.

I'd far rather that all of those at the top of their game got there because of their merits, rather than because of their penises, the colour of their skin or their wisdom in their choice of birth parents. I just choose the former as my fight at this moment in my life.

I know many women who are not paid less then male counterparts and they refuse to buy into patriarchy rules. Men are assaulted and raped too. My dad is Indian and when he came here he met lots of racism but that disnt stop him being one of the best at his profession. Seriously, you will never be deemed as equal while you spend so much energy on looking for to others to blame.

I've got my foot against your chocks, BM, even if it's only on here.

Actually, I'm glad I came up with that analogy, because it gives me strength to stand up. Or put my foot forward, or something.

When I hear men say "How do I combine fatherhood with my career?" or "I can't afford childcare" or "How can I feed the family on £x this week?" or "My child is being bullied - what can I do?" or "Disposable nappies - pros and cons, please?" more than once in a blue moon, then I'll know we have equality. Oh, and when men stop being disproportionately violent towards women (I'd rather they stopped being violent towards anyone - how's that for equality?).

Until women's choices are not constrained by what men allow them to have, then I will keep seeing the patriarchy in action.

I wish my chocks were better guarded. I feel as though it is a constant struggle, I really do. My students see me as some kind of role model, and while that's nice, I often think "If only you knew ...".

My son announced he was a feminist today, and I was proud.
No patriarchy in this house.

I am massively focussed on women and their potential. Part of that requires looking at the stuff that prevents them (and us) from reaching their potential, though. I can't just rah, rah, rah without recognising the fuckers that tried to stop her along the way because she was a woman.

On the ladder of life, women start a few rungs lower than an equivalent man and there is very often no-one guarding her chocks. I can't do that much about the former, but I sure as hell will do the latter.

I can't look at the relationships thread. Some are fine, but some the women seem resigned to their male partner's needs coming first.

And I don't think it is a matter of battling opression either. Most men, if you were to ask them, would say yy women are equal. It's the silent stuff, the innate thinking, in women as much as in men that needs to be challenged. The idea that you dress/treat boys different from girls when they are infants and onwards.

I posted on MN today about an issue where dh exhibits that his needs are paramount. I say "selfish" - many agree. But still there are suggestions that I could read a manual or compromise myself in some way to keep things harmonious. Advice from women. And I don't blame them - it is what we are taught - and what the manuals continue to teach....if you want to catch a man and keep him here is how you modify your behaviour.... Bollocks.

The worst prejudice can be that received at the hands of childless women who think they know it all better.

I think a lot of us feel like very small cogs in a very big wheel.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"

Gandhi

A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step

Lao-Tzu

I have learned so much here. Like a lot of women who have thought for years that feminism was important I have been an activist off and on. I have always found that having beliefs and some analysis is a motivator for action. It makes you realise there is a point in doing things and you can achieve real changes.