do you believe in the patriarchy?

I find the idea that business decisions are always made on logic a bit laughable tbh. Yes they should be. But often they are not.

^EclecticShock Mon 11-Jun-12 20:48:18
Wasabi, have you thought that thy might be making their decisions based on anything other then your sex?^

Yes. most clients/prospects seem largely rational. these ones seem to be searching for any reason not to use my co & use the other one.

and the other woman in the meeting is the internal expert.

of course they might not perceive themselves as acting against women. they might just be a group of people who overvalue their own expertise and underestimate the experience and knowledge of others but while men hold unequal power that is still patriarchy.

Ahem, sorry... will need to find another alliteration (have I got the right word?) for him.

Soon-To-Be Ex Partner, in Relationships parlance

All alternatives suggested above equally accurate.

I do think some of it is 'I'm alright Jackism'.

And some of it is 'I'm alright Jackism + cognitive dissonance'.

And some of it is just plain cognitive dissonance as a survival mechanism.

Stupid (unfeminist term beginning with T) bloody ex partner, EBAL.

Sorry, back on topic.

SAF, that makes a lot of sense; we're not all oppressed to the same level, but the level of oppression we experience narrows our "life chances", as my old sociology teacher used to call it. So, the less oppression we feel, the more likely we are to believe we're in a meritocracy (a society based on a reward system) which leads to the "I could escape the patriarchy, I'm comfortable where I am, and why should that change?" attitude. They fear that changing the level of oppression the "little people" experience will have a knock on effect to the level of oppression they experience.

I've found that often women who minimise patriarchy/inequality are themselves working in or otherwise immersed in very male-dominated environments (indeed, Eclectic noted this was the case for her earlier).

I think for some of these women there's an element of: I've succeeded in this male world, so you could you if you would stop whinging. It becomes a matter of pride, consciously or not. In a way, it's almost a sense of misguided idealism: they have found a small world where men and women appear equal and they think this is how it could be for everybody, if they just tried hard enough.

FWIW I have worked in two very different male-dominated environments: my current one, where I haven't experienced anything unfortunate, and a previous one where I was overtly sexually harassed all the freaking time. I was the same person acting the same way in both cases. I think it's mostly down to luck what kind of male office culture you get in these cases.

Stuff The Blood Ex Partner?

STBXP?

Thanks, EBAL

I'm not sleeping well, atm. But oh well. Can I blame teh patriarchy? It's actually STBXP, but same difference

Actually Frothy, you sound very sleep deprived!

Him - Of course - sorry bit sleep deprived like Frothy. Doesn't stop me putting my tuppence in though!

I did let out a little chuckle at the "It's all got a bit hairy" comment.

And after zero sleep, I'm capable of even less input than yesterday. :(

i think there are issues of relative privilige too. defenders of the status quo are usually profiting from it and fear change will mean loss for them.

EBAL - as in hair!

EBAL I think that is an element of it.

Yes, I agree with dittany, sAf and anyone else who has raised the issue.

Why are so many women so invested in minimising the effects of patriarchal society? Why the mental contortions and grasping at anything (including calling other women liars, etc) rather than look patriarchy in the face and name it for what it is?

These sorts of questions remind me of a discussion DH and I had after we watched The Matrix for the first time. Would you rather see or not?

Except with male dominated society, surely it is difficult to not see? You actually have to make quite an effort.

Hairy Him?

Swallowed - I have thought about this a lot. I think it is the same mindset as - I pulled myself up by my bootstraps, I don't see why anyone else can't.

Its as if by denying the realities you protect yourself from the knowledge that you are not as powerful in terms of your own life as you would liketo be.

I think you can even see this in some of the rape myths - If she wasn't wearing a skirt that was more than a belt that wouldn't have happened. Its like thinking, well I don't do that so it won't happen to me. Like trying to grab back a sense of power and control.

Was going to post a serious response to some earlier Qs, but it's all gone a bit hairy.

have i wandered into S&B by accident!

i actually had a lot of fun on there one night - turned out i was quite good at finding outfits for particular height, body shape, event etc just the one night mind.

i agree that the interesting question is not do you believe in the patriarchy but why are some women highly invested in denying it's existence or minimising acknowledgement of it's effect on women's lives?

garlic - maybe you should ask the advice of the posters on syle and beauty re. not looking tired

Also, GothAnne, I don't give a flying fuck whether some narcissistic male twerp wants to shag me or not ... I don't want to shag him!

I know it's really a much bigger and more sinister issue but, as I spend quite a lot of Mumsnet time grumbling about the lethal effects of sexism + ageism, am perfectly sure I'll come back to it. Not back to his offensive article, though!

Ageism doesn't only impact on women, btw. It's true that women get the thick end of everything but, on the whole, I feel ageism needs to be robustly addressed as a separate issue.

Ageing feminist S&B hair-silvering update:-

Yes, Frothy, those look great, thank you!

OMG, I've been investigating hair colours for more than 2 hours! And this is what I'm going to try:
One of these or two if it doesn't bleach out enough,
Followed by a combination of these,
Regularly toned with this and this.

It'll take a few weeks as I think I'll have to even up the roots first with my usual "Natural baby blonde" and then wait a bit before attacking my head with a fresh onslaught of chemicals.

My aim is to get my dyed hair to look more or less like the new hair, so I can ideally limit colour treatments to the odd toner rather than all-out war against nature. I don't think I've got enough white for it too look stylishly silver, but I'm hoping for an approximation of superbly steel

I'm mildly concerned that literally grey hair will make me look even more tired than I do already - but what the hell. If I need to look lively, I shall resort to the traditional older woman's slash of lurid lipstick.

Beauty update over.