Who is for equal parenthood?

So the only change is two weeks then? From 20 weeks to 18 weeks? What's the point. I remember them announcing all this a few weeks back and there had been a mumsnet poll which had helped them make the decision. Sadly, the majority of mumsnetters had seen the changes as a threat to current maternity rights and therefore voted against any changes.

ein has it right. I have never criticised. I have always accept the nanny or my children's father could do this as well if not better than I could. I am not mother God. I am one person who may or may not be better than others with my babies. I have adored someone else to help even if they do things in a different way.

I think i was helped by ultimately earning 10x what their father did, by being a feminist from my teens, by loving my work and babies in equal measures, by coming from a feminist upbringing, by being assertive enough to ensure I would never be in a sexist marriage. Many women who end up with no inequalities are the type like I am who on the first whiff of sexism in a man say - not on your nelly mate, here's the duster.

"Men are so used to hearing you are not doing how I would do it it right.

So they give up and let the OH do it - anything for an easy life. And then they get hassle when they don't take responsibility."

Oh give me a fucking break!

Unequal sharing of domestic responsibility is because the mean ladies won't let the poor menz do the jobs because they love the control it gives them?

Really?

Plenty of men refuse to lift a finger from the moment their partner is on maternity leave, because they expect that having a wife at home entitles them to the life of a 1950s husband.

There are some women who get a buzz out of taking over the domestic sphere once they have children, but they are outnumbered by women who want to share chores equally with men who "don't see dirt"

Thanks, mcf. It looks like The Times (my first post above) was right from 2015 the plan is more even male/female rights. I think it is from 18 weeks not 6 but I would love it to be 6 but I think it isn't.

I looked at the consultation but what we really need to see is what was ni teh Queen's Speech about a bill or regulations I expect as the consultation was last year.
2011:
www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/employment-matters/docs/c/11-699-consultation-modern-workplaces.pdf

"We recognise the particular requirements of women who are pregnant or who have recently given birth. We will therefore retain 18 weeks? maternity leave. This will be reserved exclusively for mothers, and will continue to be taken in a continuous block around the time of the baby?s birth. We will also retain the current statutory maternity pay and maternity allowance arrangements during this period, as well as existing arrangements for two weeks? (ordinary) paternity leave and pay. Existing employment protections concerning maternity leave will be maintained.
5.
That aside we propose that the remainder of existing maternity leave should be reclassified as parental leave, and that this should be available to either parent on an equal basis (similar provisions will apply for adopters and same-sex couples). We propose that each parent should have exclusive use of four paid weeks? leave, which will incentivise greater involvement by fathers in the early stages of a child?s life. The remaining weeks would be available for either parent. Parents would be able to take this leave concurrently. In order that mothers could ? if the parents so choose ? take the same amount of leave as is currently possible, we will extend the number of paid weeks of leave by the four that will be reserved for the father. This policy will have expenditure implications. We aim, as a priority, to introduce the new system in April 2015, although this timescale is subject to affordability.
6.
The new parental leave provisions will also incorporate the existing right to unpaid parental leave beyond the first year of the child?s life, so parents will have a single right to parental leave which they can use from the end of maternity leave through their child?s early years."

... and what kind of message does that send to the father? It's pretty bad really.

I'm sure it's pretty hard. As a mother I am sure you feel pretty protective but I wonder if sometimes you have to fight your feelings.

How many of us had sahm's? Do you think we feel differently toward our mums and our dads because our mums were more 'available' to us?

Msfickle - that is so true.

Men are so used to hearing you are not doing how I would do it it right.

So they give up and let the OH do it - anything for an easy life. And then they get hassle when they don't take responsibility.

Making people share their obligations equally - the million dollar question!!

Some people do and many people don't. And if the burden falls on you most of the time, what do you do?

I have a friend who will not let her OH look after their DS when he is ill because "He needs his mummy". They both earn the same but she wants to be their if he is ill.

Ha,ha Enimmead - so right. See my last post!

"And men who do want to "undertake obligations which arise as having children" are few and far between and find that their career suffers as workplaces often do not accept that men should be doing this."

Workplaces don't accept that anyone should be doing that.

Women's careers suffer for this too, it's just that people are generally OK with that

Chibi - it won't at first but over time things will change. I think there are lots of men out there that would like to take on more parental responsibility.

There is just alot of social conditioning. It's so deeply ingrained in us that you really have to force yourself sometimes not to say things that you don't actually think or feel.

Case in point - the amount of mothers you hear telling fathers that they're not doing something in the right way. Read- they are not doing it the way that YOU would do it. Doesn't make you right now does it.

Father's are often disempowered by their own family members which again pushes them into a secondary position

msfickle Maybe this could explain a bit

I think men are sometimes scared of getting things wrong. How many men do you know who buy something for the house without checking first with the OH? (Apart from gadgets).

I think if you reduce maternity leave (as per your suggestion) less women will return to the workplace.

Yes, in indvidual cases, there are partnerships which share these obligations equally. I am in one too.

my point is:If one person is placed in the position of always/mostly/usually being the one to cover these obligations, then that is what makes their career suffer. Not taking x weeks of maternity leave.

an ancillary point: increasing paternal leave will not necessarily result in equal sharing of these obligations

" every single SAHM vs WOHM discussion is a case in point. They may not argue for compulsory maternity leave, but keep bringing up the thing about how mothers returning to work early do their children wrong."

Maybe you're right, Widow, and I just find it easy to ignore things I think are silly bullshit :)

I just found people people felt sorry for me "having to" return to work and couldn't quite seem to accept that it was entirely my choice. :o

Thanks for clarifying that, Xenia.

I'm quite disappointed with those changes, TBH

"Mothers will be able to choose whether they wish to take their full maternity leave or whether they wish to return to work early and transfer up to 6 months of their 12 months leave to the father."

Arghghghghgh!

It is not "returning to work EARLY", it's just returning to work.

I also think that not allowing transfer before 20 weeks is needlessly inflexible.

That comes perilously close to forcing women into 20 weeks compulsory maternity leave, leaving families like Msfickle's stuck.

And men who do want to "undertake obligations which arise as having children" are few and far between and find that their career suffers as workplaces often do not accept that men should be doing this.

Which means a wholesale look at the value of part time workers and the ability to fit your career around your child.

How many men do part time work to fit around their child and family? How many men take time off work to look after their child? Why do they not do this?

So agree on all this. But it doesn't just relate to the kids does it. Women are also the ones expected to buy the birthday/christmas cards and presents etc EVEN for the in-laws family. What's that all about?

We have a cleaner come in once a week for whom I have tried to make my husband responsible. She still calls me though. Why? People just 'assume' that women are responsible for certain things. Drives me potty!

Agree there should be equal leave for both parents
I think the initial one month should also be for dads so that they can look after the mother and child.

I think the world of work would benefit massively from this change and in particular the experience of working women

"The real hit to your working life isn't because you took 6/12/20/52 weeks maternity leave. It happens because you are the one who has to take time off to stay home with sick kids, leaves early for parent-teacher interviews, etc etc - this period lasts a lot longer than any combo of parental leave does"

But why are you the one who "has" to take the time off to stay home? My husband and I usually decide when it happens depending on who's got what on - I can work from home if needs be, which makes life easier, but if I've got an important meeting on that day and he doesn't, then of course it's him who takes the time off, anything else would be silly.

My kids aren't in school yet, only at nursery, but all the parents stuff is in the evenings.

chibi Totally agree - men should also take responsibility and be expected to take time off for children who are sick, parent's evenings, as well as the school run. As such most of this burden falls on the mum and the working life suffers.

I don't think the work place has accepted that yet and I don't think many men have accepted that yet - I can see it makes financial sense if the man is the higher earner for the mum to work part time and take time off but that only serves to continue the harm to the career of the mum

If both parents earn about the same, then there should be no logical reason why it is expected that this burden falls on the mum. But all too often it does. Society's expectations need to change.

well, instead of parents evening, read 'obligations that arise as a result of having children'

it does depend on the nature of your partnership, and parental leave will not necessarily change this

fwiw my partner and i share these obligations equally, and take turns with who covers what obligation. this is without him having taken more than the 2 week entitlement available wheb we had our children

Xenia, a civil servant friend of mine attended a course on mat/pat leave a few weeks ago and emailed me the following

"basically from April 2015 the law will be changing to allow Mothers & Fathers to share leave (which will now be called parental leave) from 6 weeks after the birth on pretty much the same pay & terms. See the Governments 'Consultation on modern workplaces'. "

So yep got my dates wrong on 2013... of course in govt things take five times as long as they do in private sector!

Athinginyourlife - what I am 'moaning' about is that whilst I am aware I am probably in the minority it doesn't change the fact that our situation sucks! Like everyone else I've worked and put into the system for 15 years. It's now my turn to cash it in but I can't because the law doesn't recognise our situation.

What I would hope for is that women support one another even if their situation doesn't mirror our own. I wouldn't fight for longer maternity rights as I personally believe that we have to strike a balance between what is right for families and what allows businesses to keep functioning. But I do support a mother's right to take a year or to give up work altogether if that's what she chooses.

I do believe that we are extremely fortunate with current maternity rights in this country. My Colombian in-laws find it quite surprising that a mother would take more than three months because that is all that they get and then they return to work because there is no welfare state.

On chibi's point "The real hit to your working life isn't because you took 6/12/20/52 weeks maternity leave. It happens because you are the one who has to take time off to stay home with sick kids, leaves early for parent-teacher interviews, etc etc - this period lasts a lot longer than any combo of parental leave does"

Exactly. So if you avoid sexist marriages. If you earn as much if not more if not very muchmore than the father then you never get into tha tposition. If you earn a lot too then you have a nanny at home with the child who has the sickness bug.

Most schools have parent teacher evenings in the evening. I have never been invited to one in working hours. Is that because I earn enough to pay school fees? Also most working women who are feminists do not do all the teacher evenigns, they share them 50/50 with their spouse or he does them all whilst they do whatever other tax they shared with him (eg i did our tax returns fro 17 years and he took the children to the dentist for 17 years).

Athinginyourlife - I'm not sure she's imagining it - every single SAHM vs WOHM discussion is a case in point. They may not argue for compulsory maternity leave, but keep bringing up the thing about how mothers returning to work early do their children wrong - so if they don't want to enforce it legally, then it's through emotional blackmail and the reason for that is to assert for themselves that they are doing the right thing, ignoring that there's more than one right way to bring up a child.

The real hit to your working life isn't because you took 6/12/20/52 weeks maternity leave. It happens because you are the one who has to take time off to stay home with sick kids, leaves early for parent-teacher interviews, etc etc - this period lasts a lot longer than any combo of parental leave does

I am slowing getting there.
(a) We have the changes in 2015 - shorter 18 week maternity period and anything after that transferrable between husband and wife.
(b) Additional Paternity Leave Regulations 2010 described below:

"New rules introduced by the Additional Paternity Leave Regulations 2010, will allow fathers a greater opportunity to be involved in raising their child. Mothers will be able to choose whether they wish to take their full maternity leave or whether they wish to return to work early and transfer up to 6 months of their 12 months leave to the father. Leave transferred to the father (known as "additional paternity leave" or APL) can only be taken once the mother has returned to work; a mother and father cannot take maternity leave and APL at the same time. This new right for fathers (which will also apply to the husband, partner or civil partner of the mother who is not the child's father) will apply to children due, or placed for adoption, on or after 3rd April 2011.

The earliest a father can take APL will be 20 weeks after the child's birth. "
[SO IF WHEN I WENT BACK AFTER 2 WEEKS I WANTED THEIR FATHER TO TAKE THE REST OF THE LEAVE THIS 2011 RIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE HELPED TA ALL] Leave must be taken as one continuous period, for a minimum of 2 weeks. To be eligible for additional paternity leave, the father must have been continuously employed for 26 weeks before the "relevant week" (15 weeks before the baby is due) and continue to be employed up until the date leave is taken.

As the Government has adopted a "light touch" approach, employers will have to rely heavily on self certification from the parents. An employer is entitled to receive 8 weeks notice from the father of his intention to take additional paternity leave, the dates of leave and a declaration from both the mother and father. Within 28 days of receiving this request, the employer is entitled to request further information from the father, including a copy of the child's birth certificate and the name and address of the mother's employer.

Some part of APL can be paid. How much will depend on how much more paid leave the mother would be entitled to take. Once this period expires, any APL taken will be unpaid. Payment for APL is on statutory maternity pay rates unless the employee's contract specifies otherwise.

During APL, the father can carry out up to 10 days' work for the employer without bringing leave to an end; this is known as keeping-in-touch (KIT) days. An employer cannot make the father work nor can the father insist on working if the employer doesn't agree.Fathers taking APL also have statutory rights to return to work - the extent of these rights depends on how long the APL lasted.

It is of course open for employers to offer an enhanced paternity leave scheme to attract and retain employees, for example, by allowing all new fathers to take leave regardless of their length of service or to pay fathers their full pay during some or all of the leave."