The notion that a woman cant be sexist?

Basil anD Alameda That's not really the point though is it? The question was do some Feminists have a view that women cannot be sexist, and why.

The simple fact is that some women do have sexist attitudes and thoughts about men, (a typical example is the distrust of men working in close proximity and in a caring capacity to very young children - the assumption being that they lack the capacity to be nurturing and responsible, and that they may, in fact, all have latent paedophile tendencies) and some non-white people do have racist attitudes towards white people (an example off the top of my head being the common case of ostracisation of a daughter of British Asian parents when she marries a white man even if she has been born and brought up in Britain, or the recent cases of Asian men using and abusing white girls for sex because they were seen as lesser beings who were not worthy of respect by dint of being white and non-muslim.

The fact that neither of those situations threatens to depose men or the white race from their supposed positions of power in the western world is neither here nor there. That is a separate issue.

disagree. Women being sexist about men only reinforces their status and power - as in, can't expect them to operate (domestic) machinery, control their emotions, think about where they shove their dick etc

Women being sexist about men make not a blind bit of difference to men's status and power.

Men being sexist about women contibutes to the disadvantage women face every day.

Black people bering racist about white people, makes not a blind bit of differences to the power structures which advantage white people.

White people being racist about black people contibute to the disadvantage faced by black people.

Etc.

do you really think that's bollocks hilly (sorry, is v long name to quote)?

I think there is such a massive difference between isolated, individual and largely toothless examples of racism or sexism against the privileged group(s) and the sort of systemic, deeply ingrained structures of inequality and oppression that to use the same or equivalent words (like misandry as a counterpart to misogyny) for both is just silly at best and quite dangerous at worst.

I didn't mean it was bollocks that women were oppressed. You misunderstand me. Perhaps I should have cut and pasted from the post I was referring to. I meant the argument that women cannot be sexist towards men, or that black people cannot be racist towards white people purely because in order to be the victim of sexism or racism you must come from a recognised oppressed group. Which does not include men, and white people, obviously.

That is the bit that is bollocks. IMHO.

Yes utter bollocks that women are oppressed.

Because now we have equality. We earn the same as men, 50% of our elected representatives and senior board directors of companies are women, 50% of all board directors of charities and public institutions are women, 50% of judges and senior lawyers are women, 50% of rape victims are men, women and men have the same amount of leisure time and do the same amount of work, men and women are sexually harassed and threatened with violence and suffer from violence in the same numbers, the work that is done mainly by women is valued at exactly the same rate as the work done mainly by men, women account for 50% of all news presenters, main characters in films and TV programmes, women's opinions are sought wiht the same regularity as those of men and are treated with the same respect, women are no longer examined for how satisfactorily they meet patriarchal beauty standards, etc.... oh, wait.

It is as BoneyBack said - about oppression.

But that's utter bollocks obviously.

Women can have sexist and misogynist attitudes and in fact it would be very surprising if they didn't have a few, given that our culture is full of them.

That is not the same as upholding a whole system which says that their humanity is not quite as real as that of men by making sexist remarks or behaving in a way which ensures that women are put in their place.

If I talk down to a male colleague or patronise him, I would be seen as a nob; if he does it to me, no-one notices. So yeah, I can try and be sexist in the same way as a man, but it's not going to have the same impact on him, that his sexism would have on me.

That's sexism.

Do you mean sexist towards men? Or sexist towards women? I think many women are sexist towards women and have absorbed all the patriarchical ideas that surround them. Patriarchy is perpetuated by women as well, women who are unaware and trying to live their lives under oppression as best they can. All people would benefit if they were better informed and therefore would be less sexist.

Lrd, I think the op got mixed up a bit with Kopo, who said she's seen feminists on here saying women can't be sexist.

I think the current trans thread has similar ish content, re 'isms' only being 'real' if oppression occurs. Which isn't how any (for example) equal rights org would see it, but hey.... I assume this is similar.

Er no. But it helps you look it up, rather than wade through a thread... And if even the op in a subject of her own choosing got bored looking, I couldn't really be arsed to try and find the needle in a haystack myself.

Tis all fine though, I won't bother. I'm secure enough in my own pov regarding 'sexism' and feminism that I don't need to discuss it with an Internet sprite.

I do not see time of post, or other extraneous detail, to be relevant to the content.

Time of post?

I can see the title of the thread and I can see the debate is about gender discrimination. I wouldn't agree with the OP, I don't think. But I don't see where in the OP it says women can't be sexist?

TheWoman: I am happy to debate those issues I raised such as the sexism that seems to mean that men who want 5 years out of work whilst their wife works full time find it much harder to get than vice versa and the sexism of many post divorce childcare arrangements but it is better to debate these things than simply disagree with them. Plenty of feminists lobby for fathers' rights on divorce. it's a really important issue. It's by getting men into the domestic sphere on a fair basis that sexism is stamped out. Long term it benefits women if things are fair at home.

There was a debate a while ago (maybe the same one boney refers to, thoug I'm not sure!), where people drew the distinction between sexism and misogyny/misandry.

The argument was that sexism can be directed by many people to many people - it is a form of prejudice which, as kim says, could cover a wide range of attitudes, from people who want to reinforce gender stereotypes, to people simply dislike one or other sex.

In that context, I think women can be sexist and I did a quick search, but unfortunately could not find the posts in which someone in FWR had said women can't be sexist. Of course, I may just not have found it.

OTOH, I'm not sure women (or anyone) can be misandric, because to me that implies a whole social structure we just don't have. Is it possible the OP was using 'misogyny/misandry' and 'sexism' as synonyms - which is how they're often used - and that is where the confusion comes from?

Having just searched for some of your previous contributions Hills. I noticed that the last time you came onto FWR to post it was to tell us feminists just how whiney and moany we all are.

Im out of this thread

I'm wondering where the OP has gone?

If you want to start a debate about something then please stick around and contribute.

Xenia - I'm sorry but that post is just a giant pile of crap.

I am always telling the housewives they are sexist as there is no fair discussion with their husbands about who stays at home. They just want to live off male earnigs for life (whilst doing very little once the children are 3+) and then take all the money they never earned on divorce and deny contact with the father on a fair basis. Of course women can be sexist.

I think its very difficult not to be sexist [or racist or homophobic or disabilist] in a capitalist-patriarchy which is predicated on the oppression of people for these very reasons. I don't think women oppress men in the same way that I don't think Black people oppress white people. Oppression requires a structural, constructed set of political, social and cultural mores that deliberately exclude, punish and other those who do not fit the required norms.

It is perfectly possible for women to internalise the misogynistic discourse in our society and behave in a manner which is sexist. In many ways, it is much easier to internalise the oppression rather than fighting daily against the structural misogyny because the punishment women receive for not playing the Patriarchal game is immense.