The notion that a woman cant be sexist?

I've never heard a feminist say that, and I've spent quite a lot of time on feminist forums. So I don't think it's a widely held view.

I agree it's a legacy of the patriarchy. It doesn't mean it isn't sexism and it doesn't mean women can't be guilty of it. I have always agreed that patriarchy creates male and female victims - mpre female than male undoubtedly, but freeing women also frees men, and vice versa.

"Men who want to get childminding jobs and women who want to support men to do that, should therefore line up with feminists" Yes.

"If a man was refused a job in a childcare setting, inspite of being eminently qualified and experienced for the role, because some people think men shouldn't change nappies or plaster scraped knees, that's sexism and will damage that man IMO."

Of course it will damage that man on an individual level. But it won't damage men on a group level, it won't take away their power versus women, their social status versus women, their free time versus women and their safety versus women.

It is horrible for that individual man. But it is a horror inflicted by patriarchy; the reason the notion that men are not suited to look after children, comes from the patriarchal construction of masculinity and feminists are the people who are most vocal and committed to changing that. Men who want to get childminding jobs and women who want to support men to do that, should therefore line up with feminists.

Orm - that is the distinction made in the link I gave above.

Just the terminology is different - it comes down to the same thing though.

it is not the same thing, a barrier to a low status job, however deeply held this ambition or vocation is, is not the same as women being barred from positions of power, subject to violence, experiencing greater poverty and everything else that goes with Actual Sexism

how can it be the same thing? am not defending it, and think it would be helpful all round for all those men who desperately want to work with children to face fewer obstacles, just don't think it compares. And if men really wanted those jobs, they would do them.

I use the term 'patriarchy hurts men too' which is common usage for lots of feminists but plenty of people aren't familiar with it.

It means a combination of 'some men spoil it for other men + the manifestations of male privilege don't always work to all men's advantage'.

I guess I think of sexism as being on an individual level - and at that level it can hurt both men and women. But mysogyny is the big bastard that really hurts women, and there isn't a male equivalent of that no matter what MRA might tell us.

And not all men want to be cabinet ministers, in the same way that not all women want to be nursery workers. If you only talk about men or women 'as a group' nothing can ever change.

Agreed Ormiriathomimus - I was talking at a social level and should have said so.

I agree that an individual man being refused a job on the basis of his sex, in the example you give, will harm that individual man - I class that under b) though (patriarchy hurts men too).

Also, there are, quite rightly, laws to protect both men and women from such situations.

"to suggest that the lesser form is a variant of the same thing when it just isn't?" Yes it is. It is a perfect example of sexism. And for that individual man it isn't 'lesser' at all.

that sort of sexism is obviously not a good thing although overall you can see how it benefits men as a group, they are free to be cabinet members instead of nursery nurses

but it is not the same sort of bad thing, on the same scale or anything like as injurious, as the inequalities and violence that women experience is it? think it is unhelpful to reduce sexism to that sort of example or to suggest that the lesser form is a variant of the same thing when it just isn't?

Also I think a lot of the time two very different notions get conflated;

a) "women are prejudiced" (no shit - our entire society is prejudiced , women are not immune to socialization).

b) "patriarchy hurts men too" (agreed - but that isn't something women have power over or control.)

"Sexism harms women, it doesn't harm men "

No, it might not harm 'men' but it can harm any given individual man, in a way that is more significant than mere rudeness. If a man was refused a job in a childcare setting, inspite of being eminently qualified and experienced for the role, because some people think men shouldn't change nappies or plaster scraped knees, that's sexism and will damage that man IMO.

There was a thread on here about whether 'mysandry' existed. Perhaps that is what you are referring to? The consensus was I think that it doesn't. But mysogyny isn't the same thing as sexism. Of course women can be sexist.

I find it interesting that the dictionary definition uses 'gender' rather than 'sex'.

Sounds like a rather muddled definition to me.

It isn't inventing their own definition - it is a political analysis. One that applies the politics of oppression - it is therefore logical that it is different to the one found in the mainstream/status quo.

You are free to disagree with it if you find the analysis flawed.

I assume you disagree with it for people of colour, homosexuals and other marginalised groups too then?

I think women are sexist too, against other women.

Sexist:
The free dictionary:

1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.

In fact, the idea that only men can be sexist is itself sexist.
Some people have invented their own special definition of the word sexist, which is... interesting.

Yes Alameda, it is just another version of 'women do it too'.

Precisely Basil.

And although the world we live in is far from perfect, the above political phenomenon that you describe so well, is recognised in many discrimination laws.

although obviously can imagine and understand the appeal of pretending things work both ways

exactly as when there is any discussion about domestic violence, it has to be said that women do it too even though the body count is nothing like the same, not even close

"The simple fact is that some women do have sexist attitudes and thoughts about men"

So what?

If it doesn't threaten the power structures, so what?

"The fact that neither of those situations threatens to depose men or the white race from their supposed positions of power in the western world is neither here nor there"

It is exactly the here and there. The unequal power relations is exactly the reason those situations do not have the corrosive impact that they have when inverted. If racism or sexism or homophobia didn't tap into structural inequality and injustice, it would just be one simple-minded idiot being nasty to another person. It wouldn't actually matter if they were being nasty to them because of their skin colour, their gender, their choice of trousers, or their shoes. The nastiness would be the issue and all the cultural, social and economic nuances around that, would not exist. So it wouldn't matter.

The reason it matters, is because of unequal power relations. Where there is no issue of unequal power relations, it's simply people being nobs to each other and it's not that interesting.

Sexist:
The free dictionary:

1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

Sexism:
Merriam-Webster:
: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2
: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Oxford Dictionaries online:
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex:

So that's yes from dictionaries. Women can be sexist.

And I think it is an important nuance.

Sexism harms women, it doesn't harm men - therefore it is kinda important to make this nuance.

I think it is a question of semantics. Some feminists use the word sexism in a different way to the mainstream usage.

It doesn't mean that they think no woman in the world has ever said 'men, chuh! they just can't see dirt/work washing machines/put nappies on the right way.'

finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/sexism-definition/

For many feminists it works like this;

sexism = power + prejudice.

no power = no sexism

Therefore women (who do not control power structures) can be prejudiced but not sexist.

It is a nuance that is used as a tool for political analysis (its origins are in the analysis and writings of people of colour and the Civil Rights Movement and it is analytical tool that is used by many marginalised/oppressed groups).