Link between lack of women's rights and feminine grooming?

Well, which forum is more popular on Mumsnet, this one or "Style and beauty"?

It is a fascinating topic I am not saying I xdon't play the game to some extent and I probably get some work because of breast size, voice timbre and how I look even (she says without modesty)... but I don't choose to sdpend much time on it. I might if I had more time but I doubt it. I'd probably spend more time on my island or lobbying for causes or the many other interests I do from choir singing to bikram yoga to politics, philosphy, religion, travel, skiing. There are heaps of things in my life. The fact I can get ready in about 2 minutes and in effect wear a work and home and nights out uniform has been hugely freeing. I think in the 70s I actively chose to eschew a lot of the stupid mainteinance stuff South Amercian, Middle Eastern and Russian etc women go in for.

I accept that some women adore it - to sit there in front of a mirror play around with eye shadow then spent 5 hours shopping (which for me is theft of time and I'd rather read the FT or read a tract on pension reform than shop) but I think they lose out in life because other things are denied them due to the time they spend altering their appearance. Luckily I live in England where women are mostly still pretty relaxed about it all. I was delighted to be a work even this week when just about every woman in the room had fairly typical British hair, no blow dries, expensive cuts or anything, just clever women practising their trade. Good for them.

Xenia, I think that may be the first time I whole heartedly agreed with you.

I have a Chilean colleague. The levels of grooming she considers essential truly staggers me.

Yes, it's not a game many of us choose to play. As Shirely Conran used to say there are better things to do as a woman than stuff a mushroom (or here make your life's work your appearance). I suspect I am happy and healthy and earn a lot because I haven't spent a lot of time in front of mirrors or fussing about clothes in my life.

Ah, I missed that "better groomed". More trouble taken, almost certainly, but there could be argument about whether the result is "better". Whose opinion counts there? I can't help wondering if there's a weird arms race going on, where the objective isn't to look better, but to do more.

Even the phrase "better groomed" feels wrong and anti feminist. It isn't better it's worse in a way - it means they have not spent the time on better things that their time would be better spent on. Dubai is hell on earth, materialism gone mad. I preferred Iran. I have been to both on business where at least there seemed more religion although both if you get under the robes are women whose currency is in large part looks. They are powerless and earn little many of them so how they look matters more.

Also although British men might like looking from afar at women who have put a lot of effort into how they look ,as do many women, to live with these women is not much fun - they are so busy in front of mirrors and fussing over clothes and wanting huge sums for designer clothes that it is not a nice life to lead being with them. They aren't relaxed. In fact British women are even better than those ot the Amercians like many new yorkers who have a blow dry etc ever day. There are huge advantages in living with the typical British woman and long may she stay as she is.

I find it differs of course from country to country in eastern Europe, for instance women in Estonia dress casually ie flat shoes, no very low cleavages etc, whereas in Latvia they dress quite provocatively (high heels, low cleavages, short shirts.) There are many more females than there are males in Latvia. Does that mean that they feel they have to attract and compete for the decent males??

Coming back to the original question, I was shocked when I had a ex-boyfriend who was eastern European to find out how much better groomed women were in his country than in the UK. I looked completely scuffy there whilst I look quite normal here. Dresses and heels were far more normal attire, and people weren't rich, they just thought that was important so prioritized it. This was a few years ago not long after the end of communism so maybe things have changed.

i did know that actually.

I find the idea that women don't like looking at attractive bodies a bit boggling tbh. I think the porn that has been sold as being for women is pretty laughable and wide off the mark. I am anti porn, but chairman doesn't seem to know that it is well recognised that more women these days are reading and watching porn between 2 men that is aimed at women. This isn't the anodyne playboy that was a man's idea of what would be attractive to a woman.

mapleleaf, in your 20's you bought magazines of naked men, has your attitude to porn alterd over the years or do you not class those magazines as porn? just curious.

Speaking as a woman, my desire has changed throughout my life. As a teenager i had posters of attractive looking popstars on my walls and would go all gooey over them! In my twenties, I bought magazines of naked men out of curiosity for the male body and enjoyed looking at them. The years of childbearing are a bit of a blur. Recently, I have been known to not be able to take my eyes off a particularly gorgeous looking Swedish waiter..... Anyway, to focus, I did feel socially constrained not to show my desire too much, also i thought it would be unthoughtful to show my desire for other men too much in front of my boyfriends or husband. My DH however has never minded looking at other women in front of me so he is either unthoughtful, blind to my annoyance or socially allowed to, according to one's view. As to porn, i hate the idea of a huge multinational business trying to influence my sexuality or make profits from me. I am also really concerned about the morality of it, eg women being coerced into violent acts and rape so i wouldn't look at it on principle. And from what i hear it isn't designed to arouse women. Perhaps the majority of women wouldn't allow themselves to be exploited as voyeurs in this way.

But many other women may feel differently! I am pretty convinced that social conditioning has more of an affect on us that any so called biological programming.

It's always interesting to have men's views as long as they don't try to tell us what we feel or like or desire.

at what point did , my pointing out a difference between the sexes, turn into my telling women how they felt?
if my opinion is less because i have no experience of being a woman in society then your experience is less for not having been a man. i wasnt talking about women, but women and men.

and now you think i'm telling you what you should and shouldnt be discussing.

i have thought about posting as a women just to not be prejudged for the crime of having a penis, but as sanjeev says, it wouldnt proove anything i dont allready know, and i'm not a woman so my posts would really be pointless.

if a mans voice really is unwelcome here please tell me and i will leave, i mean that, i'll stop posting alltogether.

Your guess is probably as good as mine there bonsoir.

chairman - how did you get to that conclusion?!

OP¨- I think that the high levels of feminine grooming you describe correlate to high incomes and lots of leisure time

so if i was a woman my ideas would be taken on face value? without the mockery and hostile tone?

LRD, if you want to think that i think your all silly ladies because you fancey a self ritious bullying fine, but your prejudice is palpable, not to mention sexist.

Don't be so silly, slug. Naturally a fine upstanding man knows much better than us silly ladies what ladies really like! Of course, the fact many women have told this man they don't find men visually attractive is quite indicative of the general reception of naked men by women.

I'm shocked you'd call such cogent and dispassionate argument 'mansplaining'.

I think I've just had female sexual response mansplained to me

women are socialised to feel uncomfortable to be seen buying such items? and men look fine buying porn? all the mags i came across as a teenager were 4th or 5th hand ( yuk, pages stuck together!!) . no one i knew had the balls to actually walk into a shop and buy one.
'
i'm not saying women are not attall visual, and i'm sure your husbands arse is lovely and pert but erotic lit falls off the shelf and numourous attempts at marketing visual erotica for women have failed, isnt there something we can assume for this?

Exactly slug, who knows what the female gaze would be like if it were indulged more..

With ref to the "women need a connection" I think that also can vary according to which stage you are in your life. Sometimes you're looking for a connection, sometimes not.

It is possible that those magazines of which you speak failed because women feel a bit cheesy and sleazy guffawing over a man's body, I mean I even feel a bit at those Diet Coke ads. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the abs....

Anyhow we've gone a bit off topic. I'm not saying you're super wrong or right, Chairman, I'm just saying you need to factor in the social aspects and also that individual women are probably the best experts on their own likes and dislikes.