Only now that I am pregnant do I realise how much – and how routinely - women are discouraged to eat!

'Since transitoning, I've become very more aware of the messages about body image that females receive. Clothes seem to be designed to hug the body.Pictures of the "perfect" female body appear in certain papers daily, Magazines obsess about bodies, clothes and diets' - so do you not think that maybe if this had all happened during your formative years maybe you would have a different outlook.

Basil - nodding along to your posts as usual.

Sometimes I don't think we've actually moved on that much from Victorian times when middle class women were encouraged to 'eat like a bird' at the dinner table, especially if there was a suitor present. When the men went off for their cigars and brandy the women could then stuff their faces with gingerbread and cake, while still continuing the illusion of being feather-light creatures whose requirements were so small they would cause no trouble in marriage.

Would you explain a little about the book Basil? I'm unfamiliar with the feelings of women who over eat.

Yes, Fat is a Feminist Issue is a brilliant book.

It struck me as I was reading it, that Paul McKenna has taken all those ideas and made a bloody fortune from them.

Analysing societal pressures and trying to change society, doesn't stop you taking action with regard to your own personal life, of course.

It's not one or t'other.

Has anybody read Fat as a Feminist Issue? I've only read Hunger Strike, and it would be interesting to read both and see what the issues are for women who overeat, and in what ways they are different or similar to those with anorexia.

Ooh yes mooncupgoddess - and farting too, men are allowed to fart.

and sweating - you go into a gym and it's dominated by men working out, sweating away. Women aren't supposed to sweat, it's unlaydeelike.

Kim, I think that the problem with arming your daughters against the messages that society is continually sending them, is that as you rightly point out, we're all individuals and will respond differently to those messages. Some people get more harmed than others, by the messages.

In the short term, we can try and teach our daughters to not be vulnerable to those messages. We can try and teach our sons to withstand the different messages they will get. But what about all those kids whose parent aren't going to teach them, becasue they themselves have been too damaged by those messages? If we changed the messages society is sending them, we wouldn't have to bother - we could concentrate on raising happy, healthy children who didn't have to battle with the shit messages that their society is sending them.

We have to change society because changing each of us on an individual basis, just isn't going to work - too many people will fall through the net.

Kim locating the problem with society doesn't mean sitting back and doing nothing. On the contrary. I would say that claiming the problem is located with the individual and that they should just buck up is sitting back and doing nothing. My feminism is about giving a shit about women other than myself. I don't have hang ups over food. It doesn't mean the right thing is to put my fingers in my ears and refuse to acknowledge there is a problem when other women report it, and tell them they are wrong.

"Women are totally encouraged to be disengaged and alienated from our bodies all the bloody time. It's not that surprising that body dysmorphia, over-eating and under-eating, is a more female problem than a male one."

V. interesting point, Basil - and worth noting that in many misogynistic cultures (e.g. Arab world) women are very strongly discouraged from eating/drinking in public. Maybe eating is seen as too physical and vaguely disgusting for the delicate flowers that women are. In the same way, lots of men think it's funny to burp in public and do so on purpose, whereas women are covered in shame if they do it even accidentally.

Kim do you have one ex who called chocolate her guilty pleasure, and one who doesn't have any hang ups about food? Or are you not joining up the dots?

Back on the pregnancy subject, I guess I was throwing up so that might have helped with hunger thing.

I think women eating in public was considered vulgar at one stage wasn't it?

I remember reading the details of Anne Boleyn's coronation and a screen was put up around her, so tht no one could see her eat at the celebratory dinner.

Wierd.

I think it's something to do with the idea of men as food-givers - t hat they own food. They "bring home the bacon".

Except that we know that's not true. Women were always the primary gatherers of food, until patriarchy took hold and men took charge of the food supply. One of the way they've controlled women, is by withholding food from us as punishment for wayward behaviour.

Katharine in Taming of the Shrew has food withheld as one of Petrucchio's method's of getting her under his control.

LOL at being told what the conversation should be about.

"So - why the different responses and attitudes towards food? How should women respond to the messages they are given? That's what the conversation should be about."

I am actually more interested in having a conversation about why women as a class are targeted and pressurised about food rather than discussing individual women's responses. It is a feminist thread after all :)

Call me a woo old hippy, but I'm a strong believer in really listening to your body with food, drink etc., unless you have some illness or problem like addiction in which case you prob shouldn't listen to your body that much.

Paul McKenna has remarkable results (70%+ success rate, compared with the FatFighter type orgs 90% failure rate), because that's all it basically is - eating consciously, listening to the signals your stomach sends to your brain, to tell it that it's full). Basically, getting back in touch with your body.

When I was pregnant, for the first time since childhood I trusted my body. I found I couldn't stand the smell of coffee and no-one needed to tell me not to drink it - my body decided for itself, that it wouldn't, even though I'd always been a big coffee drinker beforehand. I'd also drank far too much wine, but again found that when I was pregnant, my body rejected it - it decided that I didn't want more than half a glass at a time, weeks apart. No-one needed to tell me because my body was capable of telling me.

All this instruction and prescription to women what they need to eat and drink is just more policing of our behaviour with the excuse that it's for the sake of our babies, as it would be socially unacceptable to come straight out and tell us directly what to do with our bodies. It's a load of bollocks. Women are totally encouraged to be disengaged and alienated from our bodies all the bloody time. It's not that surprising that body dysmorphia, over-eating and under-eating, is a more female problem than a male one.

hang on Kim, OP starts a thread about the messages women are being given, ie something she thinks is wrong with society; you inform us that actually the problem is with how some women respond to those messages and that's what we should be talking about. In other words you seem to be saying we shouldn't be criticising society, just ourselves.

Since this is a thread about eating, have a

Oh you're trans, Kim.

So my point stands. You haven't been bombarded with messages about how you mustn't eat. You were bombarded with different messages which you rejected.

But this thread is about the messages women are bombarded with and how we respond to them.

WoTmania, I totally agree about menstrual cycle having an influence on appetite - I always get hungrier before my period and also, when exercising, I notice that it's harder to run, etc., than after or mid-cycle.

There's some research to show that women alcoholics who have a bingeing pattern (as opposed to the topping up steadily every day or nearly every day pattern) are more likely to go on a bender just before their period.

We are encouraged to completely ignore our menstrual cycles when it comes to how we respond to our physical needs - a large percentage of women disguise their cycles with hormonal contraception - but it can be really important in giving you an idea of why you feel like fainting at 5PM when you ate the same at lunch time last week and weren't really hungry at 7PM.

WoTmania "I ate a lot in my first trimester too"

Same here - and because my baby & bump were huge it was probably a good thing. From 6 months on I just didn't have the room to put food - my stomach was squashed. I was absolutely ravenous after the birth when my internal organs started to fall back to their normal position again!

kim147 "I was wondering when that would come up.
I'm trans - read some of the other threads and you will see some of my thoughts."

After your first couple of comments on the thread, I thought 'this Kim is clearly a male troll.' But didn't say it. I'm glad to see that it is just male privilege you exude and not that you're a man using a woman's name to cause trouble!

AliceHurled - maybe you're just eating to hunger? Which surely is sensible? I ate a lot in my first trimester too but vommed most of it back up so gained no weight.

Alice - I wouldn't worry about it or if you are get advice from your midwife. There are papers saying pregnant women need more calories and women are putting at their babies at risk by dieting and papers saying the opposite.

What a woman who is very thin at the start of a pregnancy needs to do is going to be different to what an average weight woman needs to do, which will be different to what an overweight woman needs to do.

WoT, yes, that is another thing that has changed with me as I have got older. I have related eating and drinking to my actual mood - headaches and sugar consumption, changes around ovulation and so. Before pregnancy I just related food to something my body 'meant' rather than what I was actually doing with my body.

Maybe I was socialised to care more about other's opinion when I was growing up. I haven't changed to accomodate them but I can still fell upset by them surely. Especially if it's a drip drip of negative comments.

Just reread your post. but you were upset but the comments? How is that any different. the only time I cahnge my behaviour is when my mum has cooked. And that is also because I'm aware they are always concerned about my EDs possibly returning.