been musing, about breasts and underwear.

I also find underwired bras more comfortable. I'm a 30GG and I find it bloody uncomfortable not wearing a bra. I don't sleep in one but I do put one on as soon as I get up.

If I had much smaller breasts then I probably wouldn't bother if I was comfortable (physically) without one, because bras are expensive and to me they are more of an essential item (like shoes) than a 'fun' thing to buy. This is a personal thing for me and I don't think women should feel obliged to wear a bra if they are more comfortable without one. I hate it when you see celebrities- shock, horror- going braless in the tabloids- why should they have to wear one if they don't want to?

When I'm bra shopping I always choose comfort over appearance. The whole reason I'm buying a bra is because of comfort so I don't give a monkeys how they look really. I find lacy ones scratchy. I'm not a huge fan of plunge bras but they do make breastfeeding easier and because of my shape a lot of the time that's all I can get to fit me comfortably.

I suppose all the lacy 'sexy' styles are available because of the way our society has fetishised (is that a word?) breasts. Something that should be a functional item of clothing has become something sexy and impractical and in some cases, totally unnecessary.

Bras have could have been something that is for women but instead they are something that is for men. Why can't we just have something for us?

Of course you are right to put your own personal comfort first. But feminism is about exploring the choices we make and questioning whether they are real choices or as a result of patriarchy and societal pressures.

Krum - I am sure underwired bras are the most popular amongst young woman. But I thought the most popular bras in the UK were soft comfortable bras that most women as they get older tend to wear?

Same here math I tried wearing non-underwired after giving birth to DS, but they just weren't that comfortable!

Especially when breastfeeding, the support from the underwiring and the fact they were more cushioned than the non-underwired, so much better for my aching boobs (and back)!

What is comfortable isn't universal, it's personal. I know some people find flip flops highly comfy, I personally feel like I may as well have cheese wire between my toes.

And, right or wrong, I rate my own physical comfort above making any kind of political statement.

I personally find underwire bras much more comfortable than non-underwire...

"We are talking about bras that make the breast look 'sexier'"

The OP makes no mention of only being about "sexy" bras, and asks instead about bras in general. You may be talking only about non-functional bras, but that doesn't mean everyone else is.

The majority of women wear underwired bras which are very uncomfortable but make breasts look youthful. The point of this is too look at why we feel the need and encourage our children to wear underwear that does this. So yes soft cup, wireless bra wearing women may be wearing them for comfort if they have large breasts but that is irrelevant. We are talking about bras that make the breast look 'sexier' and the social pressures that mean the majority or women feel is unquestionable that they need to wear them.

For those asking about why women weren't wearing bras for 'comfort' before the 20th century, i'd suggest that women who did active 'manly' things in pre-20th century times would 'bind' their breasts with strips of material to stop them jiggling around.

I am a 'functional' bra wearer.. but with my 36DD i do wear a bra all day and swap to a sports bra for everything active including hiking (because the straps don't fall down under my rucksack straps) and yoga (because my boobs don't fall out when i'm upside down).

I will acknowledge that nipple hiding is due to society pressures.... but the rest of bra wearing is down to comfort and giving me the ability to run around and function like a man (i also don't wear high heels, long nails, dangly jewellery or restrictive skirts).

I wear a tshirt type bra so that people can't see my nipples! Wearing a bra is about not feeling that people can see every detail of my body.

I've been thinking about the childhood aspects of bra use e.g. training bras.

Should training bras be encouraged or discouraged or are they "neutral"? When is the right time to start wearing bras? Should girls be influenced to wear bras only after their breasts have started to enlarge, when breast support and comfort need to be addressed? What about bras for pre-pubescent girls as a fashion choice or role model aspiration (trying to imitate their mother)? For many girls, their first bra is a memorable milestone on the path to womanhood.

According to some feminists, bra use by pre-pubescent girls is about socialising girls, because the bras are not performing a breast support function. This socialisation causes many girls to internalise a connection between a woman's breasts and sexual attractiveness.

I just don't like nipples and if I see a woman or man with their nipples visible through tops I can't help but look! Don't know why. It's like friends, they never wore bras on that show!

And me too SP. But really the problem isn't that nipples show through the tops we wear but that them showing is considered a bad thing, distracting or overtly sexy. It isn't when a man's nipples show through their top.

I wear bras as I like them and don't want people seeing my nipples through tops!

Won't see me burning my bra anytime soon

grimble - Don't leave! I find wearing a bra comfortable - I have large breasts. What I don't know is whether this is because I am used to wearing a bra and whether if I didn't - say for a few months - things would feel different. For example, I find it more comfortable to wear shoes than go barefoot. And yet adults who have been brought up barefoot, from everything I have read, tend to find shoes very restrictive and uncomfortable. So I suspect my feet have adjusted to this and haven't had the natural toughening up they would get if I had always gone barefoot.

So yes I wear a bra about the house purely for my own comfort. But I'm not sure if this is the whole truth and if I had never worn one whether bras would feel uncomfortable

Then you don't understand what patriarchy is.

Please Krumbum, don't patronise me. It's a most unpleasant trait that some feminists indulge in with other feminists who happen to disagree with them.

OK - wired bras. Never ever worn one. Mine are simple cotton and soft and again [slaps hand to forehead] worn for comfort.

As a feminist I would assume you understood how we are socialised by patriarchy.

Yes I do actually though you appear to have contradicted your first sentence there...

My first conscious literary understanding of the patriarchy came when I was 10 in 1953 and read The Second Sex. Then there was Frieden and others and I carried on from there, through more courses, study, women's discussion and books than I care to remember, right through the personal is the political and the late 60s and early 70s second wave feminism even though many of my contemporaries and I and my mother and grandmother (a suffragette) had been living feminism and the effects of the patriarchy for the entire 20th century between us.

If you mean comfort because your you feel emotionally more comfortable..."

Jesus H Christ. NO.. How many more times?

..shaming those who do not wear a bra leads to this discomfort for them."

So wearing a bra leads to women who don't feeling shamed? What are you suggesting - that those who wear bras for comfort shouldn't do so because it makes those who don't feel bad? If women who don't wear bras are unnerved by women who do then they clearly have some esteem issues.

And finally you say it is important to consider why we do things. Yes, indeed. I have spent the last six decades considering why we do things. And that's why I am able to tell the difference between what I do because of the effects of the patriarchy e.g my occasional sortie in high heels and what I do for comfort.

I don't expect to convince you and I apologies for a rant, but I do get brassed off by feminists who believe it's my way or the highway......not all us old birds are brainwashed victims of the patriarchy you know. Some of us have managed to learn a bit about the patriarchy along the highway....

But my irritation is derailing the thread so I really will leave it at that. Time for lunch and a glass of

"Why did women not start wearing bras until the 20th century?"

Possibly because they had, for centuries, been wearing far more restrictive boned corsets. Bras were a liberation compared to that.

Pert breasts are associated with youth, so holding them up falls into the same category as using wrinkle cream, dying grey hairs or plucking chin hair.

I suspect the latter.

It's too bad that most people are concentrating on the personal here, and ignoring the political. Oh well.

But boobs have been around a lot longer than bras. I wonder what would happen if you went to a tribal village somewhere (could be Fatu-Hiva, where Tei Tetua came from!) and lent a bra to a woman there who'd never seen one in her life. Then a week later you'd go and ask for it back. Would she say, "Hey, that's the most wonderful idea ever! Can I keep it?" Or it might be more like "You white women wear these things all the time? You must be nuts."

Then you don't understand what patriarchy is. Why did women not start wearing bras until the 20th century? Were women just unbearably uncomfortable up until then? Did women wear corsets cos they were comfy. If bras were for comfort (I mean physical comfort) then they would all be simple soft cotton with no wire that only women with very large breasts wore, but they are not. As a feminist I would assume you understood how we are socialised by patriarchy. It is important to question why we do things and whether it is part of female oppression. Which when you look at the evidence, bras are. If you mean comfort because your you feel emotionally more comfortable ie your boobs sag less, no visible nipple then that is clearly bras being used to achieve a unnaturally 'sexy' look and shaming those who do not wear a bra leads to this discomfort for them.

We wear them because they make breasts look what patriarchy deems as sexy.

Would that be the royal "we" Krumbum?

Sometimes I do wish my fellow feminists would not try and tell me what my motives are.

Watch my lips. I wear a bra because I find it more comfortable. And to repeat... I don't give a flying fuck what the patriarchy deems.

You may. I don't.

"One wonders how this lady managed to be running fast enough to slap herself in the face, and what she was wearing at the time. It probably wasn't trials for the Olympics."

If you are referring to my post about my friend, she was running down stairs.

I hardly ever wear a bra, in fact I've only recently started wearing one for work, because I also tend to wear thin tops and since pregnancy and breastfeeding my nipples stick out in a very obvious way. I wouldn't (and don't) really care about this among female company, especially other mums, but I find it really distracting when I'm trying to talk to someone and they're flicking their eyes down at my chest which has happened when I have worn this combination of thin top + no bra in a situation where there were men, especially men who weren't used to being around mothers. The kind of shop I work in, I wouldn't really want to attract that kind of attention, much as I know it's not my responsibility to cover up.

So, I bought a bra which I liked, underwired, slightly padded, and I do like the effect it has when on, but it can be so uncomfortable and some days I really notice it. I often end up layering up tops so I can get away with not wearing it.

I have small breasts so no comfort problems for me, but I have frequently wished they were bigger so that they looked nicer. I do have to wear a bra if I want any semblance of a bust under clothing. However this doesn't bother me as much as it used to, which is probably in part because DP has always been really complimentary about them and specifically about them being smaller, which makes me wonder how much of my insecurity/dislike about them was genuine and how much was based on societal expectations.

Agree with krumbum.

Without a bra it hurts to run upstairs, or downstairs for that matter, it also hurts to do anything that involves bending forwards and then straightening up - picking Lego off the floor for instance. If I lie on the couch to watch tv or read I accidentally lie on them and that hurts too, I've also cut my nipple while leaning forwards and shutting it in the door.

I'm not so fussed about what they look like, I just prefer not to be in pain.

We wear them because they make breasts look what patriarchy deems as sexy. Breasts in bras look perter than any could naturally and have an unnaturally round shape. But we fo not need bras, breasts do not sag more without bras (although why is sagging negative? It's natural) unless you do a lot of sport that gives you breast pain which would mean you need a sports bra then you don't need a bra. If it were just for comfort then very, large breasted women who found then uncomfortable would wear crop tops not wired, padded, lace bras.