Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

.

edam

I'm not convinced either, but for the sake of discussion, I don't even see how its relevant even if it was possible.

Looking at the structure of the brain and its chemistry only tells you about the biological brain, and not the mind.

Therefore, if there was such a thing as a 'female brain' or a 'male brain', it would be just the same as having 'female genitalia' or 'male genitalia', or internal reproductive organs, or bone structure etc. etc.

Which means that a biological female (XX) for example may theoretically have 'the wrong brain' and yet they would still be biologically female, because biology does allow for occasional variations.

This would be the same sort of mismatch we already find occasionally in for example biological males (XY) with androgen insensitivity (who may have a vulva instead of a penis). They are still male (XY), have testicles, no internal female reproductive organs, but one biological part does not match - the external genitalia.

Using the same argument, a biological female (XX) for example, who was found on a scan to have a 'male brain' (whatever that may be), would simply have one mismatching biological part, and would still be biologically female (because the only consistent biological factor is chromosomes - all other biological features are usually there, but not always).

I think people get confused because they think of the brain and the mind as the same thing. The brain is a physical structure and is biological. The mind is not physical and consists of intangible things such as thoughts and feelings.

The brain can influence the mind and vice versa, just as the rest of the body can influence the mind and vice versa. But the brain is still just another biological part of the body.

A brain scan will never be able to tell you your gender-identity, because your gender is what you say it is (based on your feelings in your mind). The two things may happen to match, in which case great. :)

But in a case where a biological brain scan did not match your internal gender identity (mind), then I would expect mind to have the final say... which means gender identity is about the mind and not the brain (though it may be influenced by it).

I'm still not convinced by the idea that you can tell from looking at a brain scan whether someone is male or female. I don't think it's true. It's not like skeletons where there are clear anatomical differences (e.g. the shoulder and pelvis).

If you look at brains, you can say on average women tend to have more connections between the two sides, and men tend to have bigger brains (just as they tend to have bigger bodies) and on average this gender has more grey matter and that gender has more white. BUT the range of variation is huge. Individual men may well have lots of connections and individual women may have big brains. Same as you can't tell from shoe size whether someone's male or female - size 9 feet may be more common among men but some women have size 9 feet and some men size 7.

People fall quite quickly into talking about 'male' brains and 'female' brains as if those categories exist and are meaningful for distinguishing between individuals. I doubt very much that they are.

There are more than 6bn people on this planet - the number who have had brain scans is a tiny, tiny fraction. There are dead brains and dead brain tissue, but a. it's dead, you can't see how it worked in action and b. I'd be prepared to bet that the number that have been objectively assessed for 'maleness' or 'femaleness' is quite limited.

Ah, I'm not trying to speak for all transgendered people at all. I'm just trying to explain why its possible for society to have an influence on people's actions without them necessarily being aware of this, or raising it as a reason (because they are unaware of it).

This is just personal speculation I freely admit, but it is personal theory that doesn't expect the individuals involved to necessarily agree because one of the major premises is that they do not need to be consciously aware to be influenced.

I fully mean what I say when I self-identify as neither male nor female gender-identity... there is a post on this thread that explains it a little better, but the short version is that my body is just a container for me, and is not the same as me. I do not necessarily expect to be in this body forever (am exploring reincarnation which may also help explain), and while I am in it I do not agree with any gender role at all being expected of me, nor gender-identity imposed upon me other than what I say it is (neither).

I do hope that if you find any of my comments wrong or misleading, that you will engage with me over them. I am here to learn, and while some of my opinions and beliefs are firm, none are fixed. :)

Whiteshores for me, I am picking out some wisdoms in what you are saying. Though I'm not sure what you self-reflect in 'neither male nor female gender-identity'. (on a slightly frivolous part, I have often been referred to as just a 'big girls blouse' on a few issues when my reactions to stuff are inconsistent with my male physicalness - but that is just frivolous, though a bit revealing about expected gender conducts).
But what you post there is sensitive and imagined specualtion on how you consider trans people are probably thinknig. Some of it may be right. A lot of it doesn't refelct the experiences and explanations of trans people I know though.

the OP asks 'is trans contradictory to feminism'? As a non-declared feminst I don't wish to add to that question directly. But some of the points made in this thread, and the prevous one regarding the nature of transsexuality, are wildly misleading, and are worthy of being challenged by non-feminists. imho.

I should add there are also people whose gender-identity and biological sex do match, but who desire cosmetic alteration out of personal preference.

Pete Burns is one example of this (he facially looks very feminine and has multiple surgeries to do so, and wears makeup), but completely self-identifies as a man.

There are also many men whose biology and internal gender-identity both match, but who choose to surgically acquire female anatomical traits out of personal preference... eg. men who have breast implants, but still identify as men.

In an ideal world, this would be possible for everyone without the societal backlash.

Fortunately, it appears many people who are transgendered are beginning to feel confident enough to keep their own anatomy and not change it (unless they wish to out of personal preference), and perhaps this is the first step to feeling they do not have to alter their superficial external appearance either (unless they want to).

Pan

Ah, if you are saying that biological sex does not mean a person has to act out society's expected gender role (based on that sex), I completely agree. :)

I think the difficulty with talking about behaviour based on superstructure is that it is so ingrained in culture that many people are arguably actually not even consciously aware of its influence on them.

This is just my personal opinion made up on the spot (and I'm happy to reconsider), but I would say that many MtFs who desperately want to be live a specific gender role on some level realise that society at large will never actually allow them to do this in peace unless they also at least superficially appear to have that biological sex.

This is because society at large firmly believes that your biology has to be the same as your gender role.

Therefore, they attempt to get what they want (a female gender role) by appeasing or obeying society, and thus adopting the appearance of female biological sex... so that the two match, as society dictates.

It is an attempt to achieve two things: live the desired gender role, and appease society

Some will give up their personal desire and simply work on appeasing society (transgenders who have not 'come out' and live in a different gender role to the one they want).

Some (I would include myself here) are happy to be who they are (neither male nor female gender-identity in my case), without making any external changes to invoke a difference in societal behaviour towards me (I want society to change, not myself).

And some (where the vast majority of visible transgenders fall, because the other categories are not visible), attempt to reconcile society's expectations with their own wishes. They have an internal feeling about who they are, and how they want society to treat them, and they attempt to reconcile the two (to greater or lesser degrees of success).

Whiteshore no, no - I was merely saying the the biological 'determinism' at birth isn't the sole determinate as to how some people live their lives and view the world around them. Yes I am male, and don't really question this, and recognise the patriarchal fact of our society. Others don't share that view of themselves and are massively separate to the 'priviledge' (as MTFs esp). If fitting in to the superstructure was such a driver, then the MTF I know would have no motivation to undertake the massive and invasive sacrifices she made.

The trans-species link had a bit saying that trans-species are transgender are considered to be related by people that have both. I wonder if that is just because once you have acknowledged one in yourself, you are more likely to feel able to acknowledge the other.

I also find it strange that lycanthropy is considered a clinical condition but other kinds of trans-species feelins aren't.

Pan
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but is your post saying that biological sex at birth does not exist? or has been deconstructed on this thread?

Because none of the posts here have done so without a rational counterargument. And I will happily respond to any arguments that claim so.

I think I'm probably more of a feminist than I realised judging by your informative post about feminism Vesuvia (I'm still exploring). :)

I especially agree with this point - that all of the oppression and discrimination as a woman I have faced in my life has been due to my biological sex (and the features that are expected to come with that, and usually do).

None of the oppression/discrimination has been based on my internal gender-identity because a) people don't know what it is unless I tell them, and b) I do not feel like a woman, I feel like an individual entity.

I feel very strongly that sex (fixed, biological) and gender (feeling in the mind, not necessarily fixed) very much need to be kept separate and acknowledged as different things. This is especially important when it comes to certain women's groups (which have traditionally always meant biological women), whereas now 'woman' is taken to mean biological and/or gender.

Many biological women still need a space that is defined by sex and not by gender (for reasons pertaining to sex and not gender).

And the vast majority of feminist issues - female-specific discrimination/oppression, female genital mutilation, being forced to wear certain clothing (rather than choosing to), being aborted or killed at birth for being female en masse - these are all based on sex, not gender which is actually irrelevant in these cases.

good lord was to bobbledunk's post

good lord

Really problematic post vesuvia. Throughout there is an assumption that inviduals are making decisions within their perception of the existence of a patriarchy - they they are 'bowing' to a superstructure. I know this isn't the case for the 3 transgendered people I know. Their knowledge of themselves was outside of a notion of a patriarchal superstructure.
Also, consistent with (what we are using as short-hand) rad fem theory, the ultimate determinant is a the birth biological imperative, whic hthis thread and one about a month ago has flatly de-constructed.

Here is an opinion from a woman who is both transsexual and transabled ('desires' to be 'moderately to severely deaf')

transabled.org/thoughts/a-comparison-between-transsexuality-and-transableism.htm

Excellent post Vesuvia.

Just some very basic links for anyone who is interested, as I find all of these fascinating (and relevant as they too involve a disconnect between mind and body)

Trans-specism
Otherkin
Trans-ablism - also has personal statements by people who are both transgender and transabled, describing the similarity and intensity of their feelings in both cases.

They feel that way but just because you 'feel' something doesn't make it reality. There are also people who are 'transabled', they feel that they were meant to have one leg/be blind/deaf/paraplegic/quadraplegic or whatever their chosen disability is. It is probably the same area of the brain that is producing the faulty wiring that leads people to believe themselves to be transsexual. I suppose the causes are different for every individual, some people may be brain injured, others could have been affected in such a way by their environment and sometimes nature messes up.

Good post Vesuvia. One of the problems with all the reduction to individual identity is that the problem is placed at the door of the individual rather than society. So people who don't fit with society's norms are being told to change themselves, rather than acknowledging it isn't an individual problem and that society needs to change. You can see it across politics, that blame and responsibility is placed at the door of the individual to obscure the wider, and more challenging problems. That doesn't sound fair to me.

I agree with most of what you've said vesuvia.

Giving hormone therapies and surgery and official sex-reassignment to people only reinforces the destructive idea of gender roles and so impacts negatively on those suffering in the patriarchy.

But, until society changes, people who feel trans, still feel trans...what help should be given to them? Because their pain and disasossiation is real. Counselling?

"Transgender is being used by patriarchy to persuade society that we are only individuals who determine our own destiny and there is no such thing as biological females as a group, oppressed for being biologically female. Patriarchy wants people to believe that there is, therefore, no need for feminism. Patriarchy uses the transgender v feminism argument to exploit both disadvantaged groups in a divide-and-rule strategy to maintain its privilege"

The only thing I can see in this paragraph is paranoia.

I acknowledge, and sympathise with the undoubted personal discrimination and difficulties experienced on an individual basis by transgendered people doing their best to get through life.

I also want to consider the bigger political picture of why transgender is so problematic for some feminists.

Here is my summary of some areas of contention between some MtF transgendered people and their supporters, and many feminists:

(I'm not trying to say that all transgender supporters or all feminists believe all that I've attributed to their side of the debate).

Transgender : Focus on the problems of the individual MtF person.
Feminism : Also consider the situation of females a group.

Transgender : Change the person to fit patriarchal society.
Feminism : Change patriarchal society to liberate females from male oppression and domination. Changing the person rather than society preserves the oppression of women by men.

Transgender - Increasingly tendency to keep their male anatomy i.e. not have surgery.
Feminism - Females who keep their female anatomy are oppressed by men.

Transgender : Change outward appearance of the body to facilitate a move from the masculine gender role (behaviour expected of boys and men by society) to the feminine gender role (behaviour expected of girls and women).
Feminism : Either remove male and female gender roles or change the value put on those gender roles so that they become of equal value, or don't link behaviour with physical appearance, making a move from one role to another unnecessary.

Transgender : Adopt the opposite gender role in an attempt to escape discrimination.
Feminism : Females have not been allowed to escape from many aspects of their gender role and its discrimination, often imposed by violence and law.

Transgender : Self-identify and self-define as a female and/or woman, often described as "feeling like a woman in a man's body" - their gender identity. Biology of sex is regarded as unknown or unfixed or a spectrum, and doesn't matter much anyway.

Feminism : The oppression of women by men has been based on biology. Biological sex is fixed. A person is either biologically female, male or intersex for her or his whole life. Transgender is not intersex. It's impossible to know what the other biological sex feels like. Both biology and gender have been used against females for thousands of years, so feminists protest against how the change in status of "female" in biology and "woman" in society will be used negatively against almost all girls and women, those who have been regarded by society as girls or women since birth. (That can cover people with hormonal and genetic conditions e.g. a chromosomal XY male with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome).

I am not surprised that there is disagreement between transgender supporters and many feminists.

Transgender is being used by patriarchy to persuade society that we are only individuals who determine our own destiny and there is no such thing as biological females as a group, oppressed for being biologically female. Patriarchy wants people to believe that there is, therefore, no need for feminism. Patriarchy uses the transgender v feminism argument to exploit both disadvantaged groups in a divide-and-rule strategy to maintain its privilege.

Of course, their replies, (which I didn't pull apart when talking to them as it is an incredibly sensitive subject for them, lots of tears, hugs and nodding was all that is appropriate, not criticism or analysis) were...

They don't identify with men

They prefer to be women

They feel like women

Unhappy with the pressure to be masculine

And...women have much better wardobe options (that I did tease them about, but they did insist it ran deeper than that!)

They both are/were under professional care but only one was approved for surgery. I haven't asked why A has been turned down.

Didn't you ask them how they felt?