Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

I don't know, Nyac, but I don't think it is primarily motivated by concerns for trans people. I would speculate that it is linked to ideas about sex positive feminism. The more people argue for performative sexuality and gender, the more they can sideline issues that apply to women in general and shift their focus on to the rights of a group of women who are performing something that a misogynistic society wants to see.

Who cares about the abortion rights of some drudge of a woman who already has 3 children and works long hours in a low status job when they could be focusing on the rights of some more hip woman to wear nipple tassles?

Whether it needs more or support or not doesn't change the desire of many people to want to go around expressing their support for misogyny.

Most of this thread hasn't even been about people discussing what trans people feel or want. It has been about what psychological characteristics people insist women must feel. That suggests to me that most people's primary interest is in controlling women.

You only have to look at the big feminist blogs like Feministe or Feministing or the F-word in the UK to see how centred trans interests are, whilst women's are sidelined.

As I linked upthread - there are even feminists arguing that abortion isn't a women's issue any more. How could that happen?

I don't think patriarchy needs any support about its beliefs about the sexes. They're pretty entrenched and supported already.

This was about a tiny group of men imposing their own desires and needs on half the population and that half of the population being told to go fuck ourselves if we don't like it. Women can't even speak out against it now - I've even had posts here deleted for "transphobia".

What men have achieved through trans though is to have created another split in feminism between women who want to welcome and allow XY people into our spaces (as long as they claim to be women) and women who don't. They've also managed to create a state of affairs where rad fems get called bigots just because we think there's a whole lot more to being a woman than simply what a man feels. Feminism can't really afford to be split, but it is. Feminism also can't afford to be letting people with male privilege and power into our spaces and our political organising, but that is what is happening now - over and over again.

I don't think that the massive support for transwomen and the refusal to allow that other women may want to retain a separate identity in some situations is primarily motivated by wanting to support transwomen's level of male privilege, whatever that level of male privilege may or may not be.

People would support and give support to paper clips or circus clowns if it supported their own gender beliefs that they wanted to impose on the rest of society and women in particular.

If trans activism (which doesn't necessarily reflect what trans people think) was arguing for something that promoted the idea that many women don't have a gendered brain, wasn't based on some innate difference between male and female brains and so on, nowhere near as many people would support them.

Is that addressed to me Kritiq, it's not clear.

(reminds self not to engage in discussions on this issue here as reality rarely makes a visit.)

I seriously don't get how anyone could ever argue that Trans Women retain male privilege. By the very act of transitioning, they are eschewing male privilege. They are seen by cis men as inexplicably denying the very thing that gives them worth as a human being - their manhood, their maleness, their masculinity. They serve as a threat to the cis man's sense of identity - i.e. a reminder that maleness and masculinity aren't necessarily immutable.

Why do you think trans women experience sexual violence, discrimination and oppression if it's not as a function of systemic misogyny? Are their oppressors not the same people who are the oppressors of those identified as female from birth?

Or, do you believe that trans women don't suffer sexual violence, discrimination and oppression, or maybe that it's not as bad as they make it out to be, or perhaps they provoke it, or are you insisting that your belief in their capability to be violent negates any complaints when they are victims of violence?

Minimising, denying, blaming. Where have I heard that before?

I'd just like to say that from my point of view, even if it were true that MtF were more likely to commit any type of crime (which I don't believe is true), then this would not be a valid reason to treat every individual from that group as a potential criminal.

Its a bit like people that point to statistics of black people in prison (who are over-represented there), and say that this proves black people are more violent and should be segregated. My husband is black and faces this kind of discrimination every day, even though he is the kindest/gentlest man I have ever met.

Its just not a good pathway to go down at all, and is really not fair to individuals (which is what all of us are in the end).

I also know that there is a significant number of biological females (almost always abuse/rape survivors) who do have a large amount of fear when it comes to biological males... but most of them are rational enough to understand that their fear is not the fault of innocent males. Just as someone who was once bitten by a dog may come to fear all dogs (even though the majority are lovely).

I would not say that this fear should be a justification for segregation but I do think it would be far kinder and empathetic of people in general to acknowledge that these biological females should have somewhere they can go (for recovery, counselling, etc.) where they are not confronted by the trigger for their fear (whilst they try to overcome their trauma).

I also think that when most people talk about 'safe' places, they do not literally mean safe as in free from danger, they mean safe as in a place they feel comfortable in a group of their choosing to talk about issues they would otherwise keep private (for example a group for pregnant women to discuss the experience - including all of its intimate and sometimes embarassing effects).

This tends to be the same use of the word 'safe' as counsellors use, and which somebody else pointed out upthread. And I also think that as innate biology is such a commonality for biological women (and very private/embarassing for some), that they should also not be criticised for wanting a 'space of their own'.

This is not to say that many groups (probably the majority) would not cater for both people who are biologically female and people who gender-identify as such.

camp trans organiser patrols women's festival with massive knife

one example

Posting this separately, because who knows how Mumsnet decides what's "transphobia" and what is free speech - as it's not possible for men to become women they remain in the group which poses real threats of violence towards women.

Generally posts about MTF trans committing violence against women get deleted. Not sure why.

If that's addressed to me, I've just read what you wrote Kritiq, it's not exactly what you said above. Nothing like.

What deal are you talking about?

MTFs retain male privilege. We see this amply demonstrated in the way patriarchy and its supporters have fallen over themselves to hand over the category women to them.

Yes, exactly as I said above, so what's the deal then?

The root cause is men working to maintain their structural power. Male violence against women is a political action which they undertake in order to maintain their dominant position over women.

It's how all dominant groups oppress subordinate groups - violence is always the mechanism to achieve and then retain power.

live and let live ffs.

I wasn't aware that testosterone was the root cause of male violence against women.

Thank you kim for injecting some reality into this thread to counter the mythical sexually predatory, privilege waving, foot soldier of the patriarchy monster that's so often referred to in discussions like this.

Trans women are highly likely to experience sexual violence perpetrated by men for the same reasons that those identified as female from birth do - because our patriarchal society assigns less value and legitimises objectification and exploitation of people who are not identified as male.

Isn't that the problem that we should ALL be working together to smash, eh?

Males are more likely to commit violent crime than women, far more likely, especially sexual crimes. That's the issue. Whatever their "gender identity".

I don't think the term safe space is meant to imply that it is keeping out people with criminal intentions.

Counsellors, support workers and so on use the term 'safe space' but they mean a space in which you can feel safe to express your thoughts in front of an individual or group you want to express them in front of. They don't mean that the purpose is to keep you safe from money laundering or something.

I don't see that anyone is suggesting that transgender people are more or less inclined to crime than anybody else. Why would they be?