Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

Someone (sorry couldn't find original post) quoted:
"we think there's a whole lot more to being a woman than simply what a man feels"

Hullygully quoted:
"This is the problem.
You (and others) see them as "men". They see themselves as "women." "

The phrase quoted by the first poster might be less problematic if the phrase 'a man feels' is simply changed to 'an individual feels'.

Going by the definition (for the purpose of this thread):
Gender identity = what an individual feels in their mind
Biological sex = chromosomally oriented, assigned from birth with expected biological features in the vast majority
Gender role = how society expects you to behave

The biggest difficulty really seems to be ownership of the word 'woman'. Historically, 'woman' has always meant 'biological sex'.
Now, some places/people are changing it to mean 'gender identity'.

Now, surely whether a person decides which of their personal attributes/features is most important to them, and which they wish to identify with.

Which means some gendered-women may choose 'gender identity' as their main identifier, and prefer to group according to this regardless of biology.

However, some biological-females will prefer to choose their biological identity as more important/relevant to them regardless of gender identity.

One of the big problems is that females who prefer to identify by biology are a) being denied that their self-identity means anything, and b) being increasingly denied of the ability to share spaces common to other biological-females (regardless of gender identity). I would say that this is a form of biophobia.

I fall into the latter category (my gender identity = nil/neutral, my biological sex = female), and prefer to select biology as my identifying attribute. However, on this thread alone, there have been many biophobic posts, telling me that my biology is not relevant or important.... it is to me.

I suspect this biophobia is a big part of what many females are feeling aggrieved by; only without a way to name it, it has been difficult to articulate.

Nyac - sometimes in early pregnancy the surge of testosterone necessary to create the feeling in the brain that one is "male" doesn't happen (I forget why), and that human is born "male" but utterly feeling "female."

Isn't it cruel to say well, tough shit, you're a man, sister, deal with it?

Past cruelties, imbalances and the patriarchy don't excuse it. Two wrongs will never make a right.

Alice - yes it does, but I'm not convinced it always makes a difference.

Hully, for sure it's a jumbled tangle. We all are. But it doesn't mean societal influence doesn't exist. We don't need to disentangle it to recognise it.

A male facing violence from other men however, does not make him a woman.

I don't know Alice. I think about all the other kinds of psychological/ physical problems that face some boys and how profoundly that impacts on their future selves, even as conforming adult males. It is impossible to disentangle the bits of male privilege from the general morass.

I'm still not sure whether Kritiq's post was addressed to me, but I'd like to address her frankly bizarre assertion that stating that women are at risk from male violence (whatever package the male comes in) implies that trans don't suffer from violence.

Trans clearly suffer from violence at the hands of men, both because of misogyny (funny how joining the class of women, even if it's only perceived makes you a target), and homophobia (men police sex boundaries very fiercely). However the sad fact that trans face violence from men, in no way detracts from the fact that women are still at risk from male violence. It is actually possible for two things to be true at the same time.

We don't create privilege in our heads. Society gives it to us based on the assumptions it makes about us. So yes a trans* boy would still be brought up with privilege. Alongside all the problem that they might also feel, sure. But a thought in their individual head does not create a force field around them that resists any societal influence.

I would contend that feminism as a movement has failed these women.

But since we're unlikely to agree I'll bow out now.

But surely feminism has failed these women if they feel the need to become men?

Thanks Eats.

However, I'll do as I please.

But they grew up with the privileges of boys and usually young men and have the self confidence and self esteem that many women have to fight to get

Um

You mean at around what? 10/12/14 they SUDDENLY felt themselves to be female? And hitherto had felt and enjhoyed being male....

Hardly. Mostly they have suffered since their earliest years with a strong sense of disconnect and not-belonging and have suffered through not fitting in with their gender stereotype.

Where do FtoM transsexuals sit in this debate?

Surely they present a bigger problem for feminists, given that they want to give up their female identity and join the oppressors and patriarchy and benefit from the male privilege?

And now you will say they can't be women (for all the reasons hitherto given), which aren't unfair...but ultimately none of it is going to provide a solution.

We need a way forward.

we think there's a whole lot more to being a woman than simply what a man feels

This is the problem.

You (and others) see them as "men". They see themselves as "women."

Round and round we go!

"What men have achieved through trans though is to have created another split in feminism between women who want to welcome and allow XY people into our spaces (as long as they claim to be women) and women who don't. They've also managed to create a state of affairs where rad fems get called bigots just because we think there's a whole lot more to being a woman than simply what a man feels. Feminism can't really afford to be split, but it is. Feminism also can't afford to be letting people with male privilege and power into our spaces and our political organising, but that is what is happening now - over and over again."

Why the fuck does feminism have to be about segregation? Why should feminism be preoccupied with what's in someone's pants, when a large part of the fight is about giving people the same rights as everyone else, no matter what is in their pants.

I have a friend who's lived her life as a woman since she was a teenager - facing the same problems and discrimination as any other woman (plus all the extra discrimination and ridicule she had to go through her transformation) - I've got no idea whether she had alignment surgery or not, I've never asked, because it's none of my bloody business. I really don't understand how you can claim to be fighting for women's rights when you so fiercely want to exclude women which are often very very vulnerable.