Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

Because patriarchy likes to police gender WW. I'd suggest that causes high suicide rates. Doesn't negate then being brought up with male privilege.

Eatsbrains

"But they grew up with the privileges of boys and usually young men and have the self confidence and self esteem that many women have to fight to get"

Are you for real? Why do you think they have a such a incredibly high suicide rate?

In one groups of female friends, I've been nicknamed the "man", but I don't completely identify with either gender (I feel I'm an individual, and am satisfied with that definition). Not identifying completely as female changes my views on feminism, and makes me closer to a neutral party.

I enjoy challenging stereotypes, but don't know if I fit the definition of a feminist.

Hmm, after going away and reflecting I realised I probably shouldn't have used the phrase 'feeling of liberation' on this thread in the way I did, as the word 'liberation' carries a far more loaded meaning here than it does in casual everyday speech (and I did not mean to invoke that).

I revise it to 'produced a greater sense of freedom to self-express in a way relevant to me'.

The recognised right of an individual to prefer being referred to and acknowledged in terms of their bio-identity may potentially benefit another group of extremely marginalised people:

Quote from Androgyne link :
"For humans, an androgyne in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. They may also use the term ambigender to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" woman and man, or as entirely genderless. They may identify as non-gendered, genderneutral, agendered, between genders, genderqueer, multigendered, intergendered, pangender or gender fluid."

I am actually a variation of androgyne according to this definition (as I describe my gender-identity as being nil/neutral).

Many might be happy self-identifying as androgyne, but many may not realise they do not have to gender-identify, and that it is thoroughly acceptable and valid to choose to bio-identify. I know that for me, this thought has produced a feeling of liberation. :)

The key word there being choose of course.

Everyone should be able to choose whether their bio-identity or their gender-identity is more important and relevant to them personally.

Well, looks like you and I are not alone in feeling the way we do SeaHouses. I'm willing to bet a number of individuals would prefer to choose biological birth assignment as a major component of self-identity, and not to have it automatically assumed that gender-identity is their preferred choice for themselves. :)

I've been googling the term and it is already in use. There are people already using it to talk about issues of sexism and racism, and it already has a meaning when talking about people's more general attitudes to biology:

'Biophobia ranges from discomfort in natural places to contempt for whatever is not man-made, managed or air-conditioned. Biophobia is also manifest in regarding nature as nothing more than a disposable resource.'

I would say that there is no contradiction to this use of the word and the use of the word to talk about hatred of people who identify by biological sex.

I actually feel incredibly excited about a word that would finally accurately describe how I wish to identify.

To me, my gender-identity is a fairly intimate, personal thing, hidden only in the private recesses of my mind (except here on mumsnet where I feel free to anonymously divulge that information).

However, my bio-identity is clearly visible and more relevant to my experience of life in terms of how it effects my choices and society's response to me.

Therefore, I choose to associate myself with my female bio-identity, and outside of anonymity to keep my gender-identity private.

Others can choose whether to associate themselves with their assigned biological sex or with their internal gender identity as they please. :)

'Bio' in this case as simply shortening 'biological' as in biological sex.

Its pretty common for words to have more than one meaning, and at least the use of 'biophobia' in a discussion about biology vs gender wouldn't have people wondering if we were talking about the environment. :)

By that thinking, homophobia would mean fear of sameness, but we all know it actually means fear of same sex sexuality.

'biophobia' means 'fear of life'... rather an odd coinage!

typo - 'here I do not mind saying that it is neutral'

Going along the same line of thought, words/definitions such as the following may also be helpful:

A person who bio-identifies = a person who prefers to self-identify with their biological sex from birth, rather than gender-identity (which may be private, undecided, neutral, or simply not the way the individual wishes to identify), or gender-role (which is externally imposed).

bio-identity = An identity factoring in biological sex assigned at birth as the prime determinant, which individuals may or may not choose as relevant to their self-identity.

Using these words, I could say that for myself as an individual: I am a woman with a female bio-identity (in real life I would say my gender-identity is private, here I do mind saying that it is neutral).

Equally, someone who finds gender more relevant to them (rather than biological sex) can state (for example): I am a woman with a female gender-identity (they may want to keep their biological sex private, or find it irrelevant to them).

This way each group has a means of self-expressing.

Thanks for the clarification SeaHouses, I completely agree with your post. :)

Brains, yes, I agree with that. That is why I would say that biophobia is always connected to misogyny. The reason for insisting that gender roles is always more important than biological sex is because gender roles are a way of controlling women because we have been allocated the attributes of he subordinate group as our gender role.

So a boy being called a girl is biophobic. The bully is defining the term 'girl' as a gender role rather than a description of biological sex. He is then forcing his definition on to the victim's identity, despite the victim's desire to identify as his biological sex not by the bully's imposed definition.

But being described as a girl is also a slur - because the purpose of imposing gender roles (and the bully is using girl to mean gender role, not me) is to impose a subordinate role on women, and this boy is being given the subordinate role.

Whiteshores, I am using homophobia as an analogy. Homophobia against men is highly connected to misogyny. Biophobia against men is highly connected to misogyny, because the purpose of biophobia is to promote the imposition of gender, and the purpose of gender is to make one group of people (almost all of whom are biological women) into a subordinate group.

Another analogy would be racism. If I lived in a society where it was unacceptable to read books written by black people, or eat food based on recipies created by black people because black people were considered 'less', I would be discriminated against by other white people for doing so. The reason why I wouldn't be allowed to do those things would be because I was white (which would be a prejudice against me a white person), but the underlying reason for me experience that prejudice as a white person is society's hatred of black people.

Nyac Thu 10-May-12 21:11:29
Males are more likely to commit violent crime than women, far more likely, especially sexual crimes. That's the issue. Whatever their "gender identity".

I asked for some figures. You were unable to provide. Please try again. Until you can do so, I suggest you refrain from using ignorant phrases about transgendered people being a threat as its based on opinion rather than any evidence.

To me, its a bit like saying 'female genital mutilation' doesn't need to exist as a phrase, because it is a form of misogyny and should just be called misogyny.

Well, yes it is a form of misogyny, but refers to a very specific expression of that misogyny.

Oh, in addition to denied shared space, also denial of my right to choose my biological identity as my primary one.

If I was complaining about biophobia against me, you would know I was specifically being denied the right to have a shared biological space with other biological women.

If I complained about misogyny against me, it could mean any of a vast number of misogynistic attitudes or actions.

Biophobia is a word to refer to which individual misogynistic action I specifically mean.

SeaHouses I'm not talking about homophobia. :)

I'm talking about a biological man denied the right to a shared space with other biological men, and told that his biology is irrelevant could be said to be experiencing biophobia.

He may be straight, bisexual, or gay, and may possess any gender-identity.

The point I am trying to make, is that this specific form of oppression against either men or women could be called biophobia.

When referring to women's experience of it, it falls under misogyny.

When referring to men's experience of it, it falls under.... ?

Misogyny is also a very broad term, and encompasses all of the harmful actions and attitudes against women. I'm trying to refer to a subset of those actions and attitudes, which is a one of very, very many specific ways in which misogyny finds expression.

Eg. I'm not trying to refer to all misogynistic actions, but one specific type of misogynistic action.

I would say yes, Whiteshores. I think it is similar to homophobia towards men. Without misogyny, it would be very difficult for people to justify any kind of homophobia. I think that it was recognised for a long time that the two issues were linked.