Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

Where is this agreed understanding? Who says? Whose understanding is it?

So what is a man, then, Bennifer?

Yes, but there is an agreed understanding of analogical reasoning, logic and so on that people usually use to define rational argument. I can disagree with somebody's point and still understand that they are arguing in a rational way.

I don't agree with Bennifer because I think her factual explanation of what intersex conditions are is wrong, but it doesn't mean that I consider how she argues that point to be irrational.

Seahouses, to make it clear, I argued that male/female and man/woman are not universally mutually exclusive categories. That does not deny the existence of men and women

You call arguments fascist and expect that to stand unchallenged Eclectic. I see.

Seahouses - it all depends how you define irrational arguments then doesn't it?

Seahouses - that's not the case, you might want to read what I wrote.

Nyac - who are you to say that a "feeling", i.e. something psychological isn't a real condition - is PND not a real condition?

Any stance can be dressed up as prejudiced if people use inflammatory language and irrational arguments.

Whether or not the stance is prejudiced or not is another matter.

NYAC, you have an answer for everything don't you.

Bennifer, I don't think intersex as it is usually defined denies the existence of women. But your personal definition of intersex denies the existence of males, females and intersex people. Quite who you think that is in the interests of I do not know.

Bennifer, intersex is a real physical condition. Why are you confusing it with trans which is a belief and a feeling?

The point I am making is that any stance can be dressed up and put forward as reasonable with a load of inflammatory language - but prejudice is still prejudice and is still wrong.

No matter who it's directed towards.

Oh and I love the notion that my views are less valid.

Nice equality there. And freedom of speech.

But what point are you making? That sexual orientation is the same thing as either sex, gender, or gender identity? That is pretty offensive to lesbians and transgender people.

It's not prejudice to say that men can't become women. Nor is it prejudice to say that men have historically oppressed women and still do.

Would you accept a white person with a white ethnic background if they claimed to be black, and claimed that black people were oppressing him because they didn't accept his blackness?

"The institution of transgender oppresses women, by destroying our reality and denying our physical existence"

Only just a minute ago you were arguing that intersex doesn't deny the existence of women - but transgender does?

And your arguments about trans ARE based in prejudice.

Happily for me (and my lesbian, gay and transgendered friends), my lesbian "arguments" are only made up to make my point.

Prejudice is prejudice however you dress it up and it is always wrong.

Your views are less valid because you refuse to make a distinction between what we are talking about - sex, gender and gender identity and what you are talking about - sexual orientation.

Although nice to see hideous lesbophobia plastered all over the FWR section.

Hathor, your arguments about lesbians are based in prejudice.

The arguments about trans are based in biological reality that it's not possible for a man to become a woman.

But the sexuality is relevant because they are elbowing into shared spaces where my poor children are and they would be upset as would I to be sharing a space with a lesbian.

So why is my extreme view any less valid - is it just because it's towards lesbians rather than transgendered people?

I agree - fascists had no logic or rational basis for their beliefs, just very strong feelings. It's a lot like the arguments on behalf of trans.

Either that or I call Godwins.

You have had it explained. The word female doesn't say anything at all about sexual orientation, so somebody's sexuality is not relevant in the context of that definition.

How oppressed somebody is and is not in itself a reason for including or excluding them in every possible space imaginable. If men want to have some men's only spaces, they are legally entitled to them. Generally, you don't have to prove yourself more oppressed to be allowed a space for your identity group only.

The notion of lesbianism has traumatised me. Lesbians should not be allowed to elbow their way into any shared female space. They should be segregated. You have to toe the line on here and be inclusive of all lesbians and if you're not you get shouted down and have posts deleted.

Lesbians are dangerous and should be excluded and put out of any shared space.