Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin

Beachcomber I do very much disagree but early in this thread I think I struggled to be clear why and some of the comments did make me feel alienated. I am just too use to sorting arguments out between ds1 and ds2 so tend to live by compromise.

I am against any sexual activity that is forced, be it porn or prostitution. Anything where a women makes an informed choice is down to her I am not her moral guardian.

And looking at the discussions here we all have different views of what form and how far feminism should go. Surely we can find common ground on a lot of issues (Rape and FGM for example) that we are all against. A common starting point and compromise seems a better choice than telling me my way is wrong.

minimathsmouse that statement is really annoying it is like saying if you want religion you can't have feminism.

We shouldn't allow Pole dancers in this country.Coming over here and stealing our men!

I have not seen this feminist movement saying a woman cannot object to pole dancing.

Does it have any websites or literature?

Well then just disagree with her Sausageeggbacon .

Like you say, Bindel isn't in charge of feminism. Surely the views of one person won't put you off learning things you want to? .

Marxism is a political/socio-economic way of critiquing capitalism. Marxist-feminists believe essentially that woman's oppression as a class is not just rooted in the original violence against women but in the economic and social sphere. I acknowledge that the patriarchy has an antagonism towards women because of our reproductive capacity and sex differences but I think that all oppression stems from class differences in general. I also believe that the battle lines have been redrawn under capitalism and our systems which exploit people of different classes, poor and disadvantaged women (think African nations, black or asian british women and single mothers) are the greatest targets for exploitation.

Yes - it seems there is a whole movement like that.

The pole/tassels example is just that - an example. The movement is not based on just pole dancing and nipple tassels.

It isn't a movement that says that a woman must swing round a pole in order to be liberated - rather that liberated women don't object to swinging found poles and calling that feminism. The same movement thinks that feminists who are anti porn and anti prostitution are anti sex and anti liberation and that these feminists are prudes who wish to impose their own morality on other women.

I am anti prostitution because I believe it to be an oppressive institution and violence against women. Not because I'm a dried up anti sex prude who pearl clutches at the idea of doing the sex.

Beachcomber reading what Bindel put in that article that anything that doesn't agree with what she wants and how she views things IS discouraging me from learning and IS telling me my decisions are not right unless they agree with hers. Sorry since when did she become the ultimate voice on feminism?

I understand that I will not agree with everyone on everything but that over the top "if you not doing it my way your doing it wrong" approach makes me feel like I am being viewed like a 5 yo.

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women" from Bindel

That is where Bindel and I depart.

Radical feminists do however think that actions such as swinging round a pole wearing nipple tassels are unlikely to liberate women from swinging round poles in nipples tassels.

Yes and I would agree with you.

However, is there really a whole feminist movement, which strongly belives that swinging round a pole in nipple tassles will liberate women, or are there just some feminists who believe that it could be liberating to a single woman if it meant that she was exercising her own, individual sexual freedom?

So, rather than there being a type of feminism which states "women must swing round a pole in order to be liberated" there is in fact just a type of feminism which states "if a woman wants to swing around a pole in nipple tassles she should have the liberty to do so"

Which are two very different things and would mean that Bindell is attacking something which doesn't actually exist.

Radical feminists don't want women to stop learning and making decisions.

Neither do we want women to unthinkingly follow or accept arguments.

Radical feminists do however think that actions such as swinging round a pole wearing nipple tassels are unlikely to liberate women from swinging round poles in nipples tassels.

Which seems pretty logical really.

I have no objection to an individual woman choosing to swing round a pole in nipple tassels per se - I just object to that activity being called feminist or political.

If a significant issue with "fun feminism" is that it is alientaing many women from feminism, could the same not be said of radical feminism?

nyac I don't mind what you say to me. You say my post was stupid but I'm not going to cry about it. I just don't like the way you complain about derailment when the discussion meanders even slightly away from your original point. sometimes the 'derailments' are interesting posts and add things to the conversation.
I have enjoyed your thread and have learned a few things from reading it so I hope you don't feel attacked, not my goal at all.
minimaths I don't know anything about Marxism at all so you have inspired me to read up a bit this afternoon, I feel a bit of a dolt not knowing what it means!

The link in the OP and the words from Bindel has made me grate my teeth. If a religious Muslim woman wants to be a feminist it seems she can't be if she follows her religious tenets. I wonder what Rania Khan thought of that statement? Sorry Bindel and anyone who truly believes what she says has taken a step too far when alienating anyone who is not following her tenets.

I am against quite a few things, some are anti feminist, some are political and some are religious. But being told because some of my views are not the same as Bindel's I am playing for the men's team is swear words go here belittling me.

Sausage, you are so right about the alienation, which is why it is important to keep an open dialogue. What would be really wrong though is for feminism to stop being antagonistic towards the social institutions which are damaging to all women.

OP and the Bindel piece illustrates that many women are being alienated by feminism through "fun feminism" women look in and fall at the first hurdle, they ask the questions but receive no answer "what is feminism?" Women are not being given the opportunity to explore radical feminism or marxist feminism because to do so would undermine the dominate culture of men and capitalism.

No one is saying that anyone's personal views or politics is wrong but for feminism to move forward from this place we do need to work out a strategy because the battle lines have been moved by a very cunning force, the patriarchy (the capitalist)

Sorry dolly I don't think your post was meant for me after all?

dolly - So feminsts should just shut up and not explain their views even on a part of the forum that is about discussing feminism and women's rights?

Sorry x post.

Just to say as well, of course sometimes discussions get a bit heated - as they do on virtually all the boards - even camping!!

That doesn't mean imo that it is feminists bashing other feminists or feminists bashing non feminists. Discussions get heated on MN on any forum, because it is issues people care about a lot, or they are getting very frustrated, or anger from something else is coming out. But that happens on every board here

That's what the Peoples Front of Judea thought and look what happened to them!

I think it is really important as feminists to listen to women and to explain what we mean by feminism. This is how most of us, including me, become feminists. I think part of that is to say clearly what feminism is and what it is not and why that is the case.

Feminism is actually a clear ideology. Yes there are disagreements within it, but overall it is clear. When somebody/groups start saying this is feminist or this is what feminism means, when by any stretch of the imagination it doesn't, I think it is important to counter that. Otherwise those who don't knwo about feminism get a totally warped idea of what it is.

If I had thought feminism was about supporting prostitution and porn for example, I would never have called myself a feminist.

Wow... been following but lets see if I can explain why I am not getting where you are going.

I am new to feminism, I am learning, I need time to take on ideas and adjust. I get told well you are not at the right end of feminism it should be binned and you should just forget about learning and making your own decisions and just follow and accept our arguments because they are right. And if we alienate some sections of feminist (be it fun, feminist lite or pro sex) that is fine because we do not accept their opinions. Strangely you sound closer to my ExH than to any woman I know.

How do you expect to grow the feminist movement by pushing away women because they are not at your end of the feminist spectrum? I am not particularly pro sex and I am very against street prostitution. I don't believe though you can change things overnight and the ability to compromise will benefit more women in the longer run.

Let's be honest,sociology isn't really an 'ology' is it?

"Fun feminists are deeply enmeshed in what sociologists call "patriarchal bargains".

Excellent post Beachcomber.

Great post, Beachcomber!