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Original poster

Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin

562 replies

Nyac · 07/05/2012 18:43

article by Julie Bindel in the New Statesman.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/08/fun-feminism-women-feminist

Quote:

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women. If men like a particular brand of feminism, it means it is not working. "Fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin along with the Lib Dem party."

Agree with Julie, that it's extremely irritating to see a bunch of interlopers attempting to elbow their way in and co-opt feminism, redefining it to suit patriarchy's needs. I've even seen people who support patriarchal institutions like marriage, BDSM or the sex industry calling themselves radical feminists. There is so much misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism out there that people feel like they can grab what they like without making an actual political commitment or any kind of challenge to the patriarchy.

Really liberal feminism (the old kind, not the sex industry supporting kind) and radical feminism are the only kinds of feminism that have ever effected any kind of positive change for women. They need to be reclaimed and supported, not erased by third wave non-feminist feminism.

She's right about the lib dems too. :D Or maybe they are in the same boat and need some classic liberals to reclaim their party from the Tory party's whipping boys.

OP posts:
Sausageeggbacon · 09/05/2012 07:01

I see, radical feminism from what I have seen on these boards is name calling, baiting and annoying anyone who doesn't agree. I was interested in getting involved mainly because of the FGM but right now I feel like, because I don't agree with everything, I am feminist lite. And at this point I am thinking that this board is not for me and if feminist groups are like this in RL then I will not be getting involved. Congratulations to those who views are putting people off feminism

Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 00:34

I'm sorry but since when does saying that a woman isn't thinking about feminism mean that

a) they are brain dead and stupid
b) don't know what they want
c) are dumb "broads" (did you really use that term?)

That's a huge amount of extrapolation you've got going on there WB and all of it completely incorrect. Women can be intelligent, driven and ambitious and still not think about feminism, even a tiny, tiny bit. Amazing eh? Thinking about feminism implies nothing except a woman is thinking about feminism. And it's true vice versa.

Are you sure it's not you who needs putting to bed? Because you're not managing to make sense.

OP posts:
fridakahlo · 09/05/2012 00:27

We are not aligning ourselves with the right wing fuddy duddys. We are fighting to get to a point when sexuality can be defined on our terms rather than terms that buy into the patriarchy.
Until rape and sexual abuse, as well as judging women as sluts/virgins has vanished, anything to do with sexuality has to be looked at in terms of the patriarchy and how it effects attitudes to sex/sexual behaviour.

WorriedBetty · 09/05/2012 00:26

er.. wrong and wrong.

Women who work in the sex industry are brain dead and stupid??? REally???
They don't know what they want? They are dumb broads?? REally?

Honestly Nyan, go to bed.

WorriedBetty · 09/05/2012 00:25

It does make me wonder BTW why the new statesman seems to be advocating radicalism in feminism.

Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 00:24

Most lapdancers or women in the sex industry aren't even thinking about feminism though WB. Certainly not enough to be giving the v's to it and doing a little rebellion through grinding in men's laps.

And most sex postive feminists who promote participation in the sex industry as "feminist" aren't doing the work themselves. They volunteer other women for that.

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Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 00:20

You've lost me. :)

I don't see how you could remind me of anything given that you weren't there Why would you intend to remind me of anything anyway or think that it was your job to do so? I'm not following.

I know how I became a radical feminist. I haven't forgotten, which is what you seem to be implying.

But we're talking about meeeeeee again. Let's stop it. (once you've explained your intention to remind me about my "journey" of course - let's talk about you)

OP posts:
minimathsmouse · 09/05/2012 00:18

I very rarely venture over here to feminism because I find myself completely out of sync, I'll say that again but this time for a different reason. Back biting, personal attacks, finger pointing is enough really to make this a very unfriendly space. For would be feminists looking in here would be put off.

WorriedBetty · 09/05/2012 00:15

I agree with a lot of that - but I take issue with the 'lapdancing' argument. Mainly because of its alignment with the freedom-restricting anti-sex neocon right wing, old school attitude towards womens' sexuality. And yes, you can add almost anything 'ist' to that list.

That alliance to me says a great deal about why modern feminism is engaging with sex and lapdancing in a different way.

I think modern feminism (no I am not a student of it, this is my opinion) is/should be saying something different from 'equality is our right to lap dance for the patriarchy' its about saying 'screw you don't tell me what to do' - I decide. In the case of lap dancing, that statement is directed as much at 'old school' or 'radical' or 'real' feminists as it is at some duffer in a cardigan and suit and tie who says 'women should stay at home', 'sex is dirty' and 'women know your place'.

Radical feminists as that term seems to be being used on this thread and in the article don't like being told that they don't have the agenda on this. They have my sympathy, and I understand that its hard to be the original warriors who are sidelined, (see Dre's 'the watcher' for this happening to OGs), but my view is that that was what they were fighting for.

I agree that study will add to the understanding of the massive work that has been done, in the same way that my understanding of the massive work done by unions against fascists in the 1930s (including having a pitched battle that was akin to a 16thC civil war battle with the police on the side of the facists) makes me increase my respect for Unions, I don't think that would justify my saying 'you are not a supporter of workers rights unless you battle the police'.

I am tired and can't explain well, so I hope you will see my point rather than say something like 'are you saying feminists are like blackshirts in the 1930s'.. I'm not saying radical feminists are also nazis.. but I am saying that on sex, they are aligning with the right and centre right.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/05/2012 00:12

Nyac leading you to a specific outcome? No. I have no idea what this really means TBH.

Reminding you that your journey started with a single step through a gateway? Yes, that was my intention.

Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 00:09

I'm not responsible for anybody else's journey or political awakening. If that's what they are interested in, it's up to them. I'm responsible to myself to make consistent, logical and truthful arguments and to express my opinion when I want to, the same way everybody else does on Mumsnet.

But once again this thread has got personal (about me!) rather than discussing the subject in hand which is people calling themselves feminists calling things like prostitution or poledancing or pornography liberating for women. It's still outrageous.

OP posts:
Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 00:06

It seems like you're trying to lead my answers to a specific outcome Dione.

Is there a comment you want to make about me? If there is please don't.

If you want to know how I became a radical feminist, it was a journey in the sense that it took me a long time to find it, I was floundering around not knowing what politics i was looking for, even though I was already a feminist. Radical feminist arguments are kept very hidden from women. But when I came across it, I became a radical feminist almost literally overnight. The arguments made sense, so why not use them?

So I'd have thought the gateway to radical feminism was hearing unapologetic radical feminist arguments. It was for me. Is that what you meant?

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 09/05/2012 00:00

Nyac, given that you had a journey to this point, do you think that there should be no gateways for others, or that they should be put off before they start because their starting point is not your current position?

Original poster
Nyac · 09/05/2012 00:00

Are you sure you haven't got that the wrong way round? I think people are pretty dismissive of my views WB. Look at the way you're talking about them.

e.g. "You seem to say that anyone who doesn't hold your view is secretly working for the patriarchy."

Um, no I don't. Please don't misrepresent me.

I argue my case. Everybody thinks their own opinion is right. Don't single me out for that.

Someone called my views fascist today. That's really not OK.

OP posts:
minimathsmouse · 08/05/2012 23:57

I very rarely venture over here to feminism because I find myself completely out of sync. I think Nyac has raised a really important issue. I am not terribly well read but I am inclined to think reading and discussion is the key to understanding and educating (young) feminists.

There is so much pressure in the media, controlled by the patriarchy, so many freedoms hard won by previous waves of feminism and so many convenient half truths peddled that many women seem to think that equality is now about their right to lap dance.

I wouldn't call myself a radical feminist (I'm a marxist feminist) I believe that our current political, educational est, our media and the interests of private business has high jacked women's freedoms. It causes deep insecurities, markets us the cure (often self hating/defeating) and makes us buy into the beauty myth, the sexual liberation with bells on myth and now we are left discussing equal pay and whether to buy pink toys and not much else.

WorriedBetty · 08/05/2012 23:56

Nyan, why are you so dismissive of women's views if they don't agree with you especially as a feminist, You seem to say that anyone who doesn't hold your view is secretly working for the patriarchy. How about they could be working for themselves and taking the mantle of feminism forward for new generations?

Why does that idea trouble you so much?

Original poster
Nyac · 08/05/2012 23:54

As a result of growth and research Dione. I came across radical feminism in 2002 as I said, although I'd read Dworkin much earlier, and found it was the most logical, consistent and accurate politics that I'd ever come across. It's based in women's reality and represents women's interests. It's very important.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 08/05/2012 23:51

Nyac, have your views on feminism always been this fully formed, or did they come about as a result of growth and research?

Original poster
Nyac · 08/05/2012 23:50

That's fine Kritiq, I'd already said we could just agree to disagree. I didn't want to take it further.

I was hoping you might be interested in talking about another aspect of the discussion i.e. sex positive feminism's co-optation of feminist politics for male interests. Maybe tomorrow.

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Original poster
Nyac · 08/05/2012 23:49

For example the international fight against male violence against women (it's a US foreign policy objective now) comes directly from radical feminism.

Before radical feminism people didn't even see male violence against women as a political issue, it was just part of the scenery, committed by individual men against individual women.

Similarly, the new fight against prostitution, which treats prostitution as a human rights abuse against women, children, and other prostituted people also comes from radical feminist politics and analysis. A number of countries are passing laws that reflect this view. Like I said, radical feminism has only just begun.

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 08/05/2012 23:47

Okay Nyac, I'll duck out of this one. If you believe I'm just being pedantic about language, then I think any further discussion will just generate more heat than light. I actually think we share more common ground on this one than might first appear to be the case. But, I'll leave it there.

Good night all.

solidgoldbrass · 08/05/2012 23:46

What Bindels' (and Dworkin's) views boil down to is good old slut-shaming, really. A feminist can support women's right to explore their own sexuality and engage in performance and sexual display, yes, including doing so for money if they want to (doing something you enjoy for money is not a bad thing) while equally campaining for women's right not to be assaulted or to be forced into any aspect of the sex industry. All of the anti-sex-industry feminists I've ever encountered have always been remarkably happy to pal up with people and organisations who have no interest in women's freedom at all; what they mainly share with the type of 'radfems' who they make friends with is a deep and abiding belief that people need forcing into 'correct' ways of behaviour and women in particular can't be trusted to exercise their own judgement.

WorriedBetty · 08/05/2012 23:46

Oh bloody hell Nyan, I wasn't equating the two I was using that as an example of a type of radicalism progression. I could just as easily have used, say, punk music (how busted are considered punk blows my mind because of what I think punk was all about). That progression is all over the place.

Original poster
Nyac · 08/05/2012 23:45

I didn't form my politics in the sixties. I became a radical feminist in 2002. My more "modern" (patriarchy-friendly) feminist politics previous to that were rubbish. Just because something is new, doesn't make it good.

Julie Bindel was a radical feminist in Leeds in the 80s when they were running Take Back the Night against the Yorkshire Ripper and taking all sorts of other exciting direct action.

Radical feminism is just starting, not ending.

OP posts:
Portofino · 08/05/2012 23:43

Sorry, what was unclear about my posts?

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