AIBU to treat male and female posters differently on feminism threads?

i dont doubt that , well, not anymore

some mens voices are heard , some are not
some womens voices are heard , some are not

i would also like to say that when women talk about rape and domestic violence i do feel slightly under attack, this is something i had concluded after alot of thought on the matter, part of me doesnt want to belive that such behavoir is so common and if it is how does that reflect on me, i start to feel guilty by default even though i have done no wrong. i understand totaly that men playing down the prevelence of rape and domestic violence in society will get up the noses of those fighting to get the message heard, but the reason for this isnt entitlement or privaledge , if's a reaction to feeling under attack.

i first posted on these threads some time ago, under a different name. it became clear that i was male and soon enough i was being bullied, mocked, insulted and my words were twisted to suit who poeple wanted to argue with.
i really felt that i wanted to discuss feminism and allthough my views would differ from some of the radical feminists they wouldnt think i was sexist, i certainly dont think i am. i ended up feeling that there was so much pent up vitriol that a non sexist guy cannot talk about theses issues with feminists, they just want a victim for their venom.
i hardly ever post here now.
a woman only forum is not only an impossibility on the web but an inherently sexist idea, if you reject sexime just like if you reject racsiem ( forgive my spelling i;m deslexic and couldnt be arsed looking for a dictionary) you should reject it in all it's forms , mens voices should be heard simply because equality means equal with men? who else?
i have a real problem with the 'privalidge' idea , some men, like the ones on boards of large companies probobly do feel privalidge , entitlement etc. there is also a huge underclass of unemployable uneducated men who have little chance of ever getting a girlfriend or a decent living, i donbt they feel terribly privalidged.

I do like it when you get a genuine mix of people posting on the feminism threads. I feel that MN is one of the few places I go where people genuinely discuss feminism (presumably there are other internet boards that do so but I don't have the time to find out since I am always on here). I remember a thread that included a comment about men flashing/masturbating in front of women. A man posted early in the discussion and said, essentially, 'well of course this is really rare, men just don't wank in public to intimidate women, do they?' which was of course followed by 34 posts saying 'it's happened to me'. I think that discussion could genuinely have raised his consciousness. And although raising male consciousness is not the only purpose of feminist discussions, it has to be one of them IMO.

I think because it is so easy as a member of a privileged group to be unaware of your privilege, there does need to be a certain degree of being able to say "your privilege is showing" or "that post shows privilege in these ways:" and for that to be taken seriously. I think the whole point of the feminist board is for feminist related discussions, which means accepting that male privilege exists, whether you agree or disagree about the extent of that privilege. I think if you want to have a discussion about whether privilege exists at all it is better placed elsewhere.

If men want to post in order to learn more about feminism, then great - but it's an essential part imo to really try and be aware of privilege and how that makes life different for men and women in everyday situations. That includes posting on Internet message boards.

Really?

As a bald statement, you really wouldn't know the reasoning. With an explanation sufficient for one to assess the post on its merit, assumptions on context become redundant.

Unless the aim is a 'closed' forum, where everyone knows who all other posters are, perhaps by proving their background before joining (so not MN, then), then working on the basis of assumed context, and non-shared knowledge about a poster (you might know something, but other readers won't) will lead to warped debate.

Of course posts should be taken on the merit of what they say - but context is important too, and a poster's identity is part of that context.

There is a difference between a straight person with heterosexual privilege posting "I think Gay Pride is a waste of time" and a homosexual person who doesn't carry that privilege posting the same thing.

Interesting - and YABU.

I think that I was treated as a derailer for a while: I don't know if it was thought I was male, or if there were other reasons. It's not a nice position to be in.

And it's not a reflection of a good place for debate when a single post (especially when making an enquiry, or putting an alternative view in a reasonable way) instantly attracts a slew of condemnatory posts.

All posts should surely be taken on their merit in terms of what they say, not on assumptions of sex or gender of poster. Otherwise it's just trading stereotypes (and veiled insults).

I think some men react to feminist discussion as though it is a criticism of them personally - so if women are talking about rape as a feminist issue, this sort of man will get all huffy and tell us what a nice man he is who would never dream of harming a woman. For some reason this sort of man seems to think talking about men who do rape/beat/harass/abuse/mistreat women is some sort of personal affront to them. (He would like us to stop discussing our concerns and hand out cookies to all the Nice Men.)

It is a waste of time discussing issues with a man like this because his privilege gets in the way of his ability to hear women or genuinely care about our issues in any meaningful way.

I also have a lot of trouble discussing issues like prostitution, porn, lap dancing etc with men who defend these practices. No matter how well meaning they are, I am not comfortable with a person who argues for the sexual exploitation of a group of people they will never find themselves in.

I also do not like discussing issues of sexual violence with men where women draw on personal experience.

TBH I don't think I have ever come across a man who really 'gets' where feminism is coming from. I think it is very very difficult to completely lay aside one's privilege. I feel like this myself as a white person when race issues are being discussed - I can try to be aware and not racist but it is inevitable that as a white person, in a white supremacy, I carry some latent racism. Certainly I am not aware of many aspects of my white privilege and I should be pretty humble about that. I benefit from white privilege whether I want to or not - such is the nature of society. Therefore I benefit from racism, ergo my privilege is racism. I don't see how it is any different for men with regards to women's rights.

DirtyMartini posted this on another thread - it is very good on privilege.

I see a lot of men fail not only to understand what male privilege is, but especially to accept that they have it and reflect on how that may affect both how they discuss feminist issues and how feminists may wish to discuss with them. A lot fail to do this;

Accept Your Privilege
Once you have a basic grasp on the system of privilege, the next step is one simple self-realization: you are privileged. Chances are, your reading that has made you feel defensive. While it?s a perfectly natural, and common, reaction, don?t let it get in your way of actually thinking about what the statement means. What you need to realize is that we all have privilege to some degree: white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, etc. The hardest thing is to do is to get over your instinct to fight and say, ?But I?m not like that!? If you can do it, you?ve completed the first step towards being a pro-equality in reality rather than simply saying and believing that you are.

I tend to react with caution to discussing women's issues with a man - I have become kind of jaded of having what I thought was a good discussion only for a man to then show privilege/willy wave/mansplain/patronise/dominate the discussion/derail/try to set the agenda for the discussion/try to change the focus or framing of the discussion/be downright rude/feminist bash/get personal/generally act dudely.

You know you are onto plums with a man who denies that patriarchy exists.

"I don't ignore them, but the value I put on their opinion is changed, and the ways I attempt to explain things to them (or don't bother) will vary too, depending if I think they are genuinely interested in understanding, or are just there to air their prejudices."

I think AMumInScotland makes a really good point, and the analogy with the home ed threads (which have endless derailing posts from people who think everyone should send their dc to school) is a good one.

I understand the desire to have a woman only discussion space - however on the internet, there is no way of excluding men. Therefore I would respond the same way. ie, if they are asking a genuine question or genuinely misunderstand, you help. If they are derailing or getting shirty, just ignore.

Thanks for starting this thread. I have asked myself the same question many times and nearly started a thread about this a while ago.

Lots of feminist internet spaces do not welcome male posters - and they choose not to for a reason.

MN is not that sort of space, it is an open forum and all are welcome to post, indeed this is one of the many pluses of MN.

HOWEVER, inevitably, men and women experience patriarchal society differently and we do not always find it easy to mark out a middle ground with on which to discuss feminist/women's right issues. Fact is that women discuss such issues from a position of the oppressed class and men from a position of the privileged class, and there is no getting around that.

How I see it is as follows.

I don't post a lot on here, but I'm always reading, and I have seen many comments highlighting the facts that many men are not aware of the issues that women still face today.

If a man comes on to these boards, and asks a genuine question about feminism, surely the most logical approach is to engage with this individual?

If women aren't willing to discuss the issues with men, how on earth do we expect men to become aware of them in the first place?

Surely not wishing to enter into discussion with a man about feminism, is scoring an own goal, because we NEED more men to become aware of the issues we face?

To me it strikes as cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

Yes,I understand that Nyac,but it still feels wrong to me in this situation - I have less problems with affirmative action (now I feel hypocritical about that too...)
I am not sure that I agree that men are "trained" to dominate and expect their voices to be heard - I think that very much depends on individual situation.I grew up arguing regularly with my Dad,as did DSis, and I think that has left me believing that if you disagree with someone you can argue/discuss with them,male or female.They might expect to dominate and get shirty when they can't,but so what? Particularly in a predominantly female virtual space like MN. If women don't debate with men,how will that ever change?

EatsBrainsandLeaves - nice name by the way - your post made me realise that I'm biased - I work in a very female dominated environment,and my social life is female dominated too,so I get plenty of opportunity to discuss things just with women.,it isn't something I feel it'd be good to have more of!

I think that the attitude to someone who genuinely doesn't understand feminism and is asking,or whose arguments are contradictory,should be the same whether the poster is a man or a woman

Sort of agree with that.

I also think that is a male poster ask a genuine question or appears to really want to understand then it would be wrong IMO to deny him a response.

Surely it is just as important for an unimformed man to become informed as it is for a woman in the same position? if the hope is to change how things are then surely men need to be in on it too?

I don't think you should treat someone differently because they are a man. But I think it's fair to treat people differently because of their lack of personal experience of a situation - and I would do that on any type of thread. So if someone comes onto a Home Education thread who has no experience of HE, then my opinion of their opinion is different from if they have experience of what they're talking about.

I don't ignore them, but the value I put on their opinion is changed, and the ways I attempt to explain things to them (or don't bother) will vary too, depending if I think they are genuinely interested in understanding, or are just there to air their prejudices.

I think it's perfectly fair to differentiate how you treat people on a thread/topic in that way.