What kind of fucking reaction is this ?

But it is a generalisation. Further up it was said that women ARE socialised to care more about what happens to men than women.

That is not my experience. Yes I saw my mum behave in that way, but I was never trained to put my dads (or other mens) needs first.

There are selfish men and selfish women. There are women who will put men first and there are those that don't.

But it's not making generalisations about a whole group of people.

It's saying something about a well-documented, well-observed social phenomenon that affects everyone to one degree or another, even if it's only to notice it and reject it.

You noticed and rejected it, ifeel; so did I, so did lots of other women. But many women don't notice it so don't reject it, they internalise it without noticing, other women notice and embrace it (for example for religious reasons), others notice and think they're not affected by it, etc.

"It is just as likely to be a personality trait as any social conditioning". Personality traits are influenced by social conditioning. Where does one start and the other stop?

Hi messy

I have to say I nearly didn't say anything on this thread as I thought I'd get flamed, glad I was wrong.

I totally get that there are these attitudes out there, the only thing I object to is the sweeping statement that ' this is how things are' when that is not my experience. On a totally different thread, there are huge generalisations being made about Londoners, at other times it might be about northerners, mil or travellers (whatever, it doesn't really matter) and it pisses me off. Maybe this isnt the place to have this discussion, but I believe in challenging something when you see it

I believe I said the same thing as ifeelloved - but I am not getting any brighter, failing in analysis and attributing silly remarks to other posters. Hmmmm.....

People of both sexes shy away from conflict, whether at work or at home. It is just as likely to be a personality trait as any social conditioning. As the only person who knows her, Mosman is the only one who could confirm this. The rest is just speculation in order to fit a theory.

I hope you kick his backside Mosman. Bullies are cowards in any walk of life.

In men's minds maybe

ifeelloved - given your personal background where your mum tiptoed around your dad you have experienced the phenomena we've talked about and you've made a conscious decision to not let that happen to you.

I'd say it's a case of that's how things used to be and we're now moving away from that, but it takes time and attitudes die hard (and often experience mini-revivals). I feel the same as you, having had a DM who always did and still does put everyone else's needs before her own - God love her! I would most definitely classify myself as quite selfish now - the only problem is I continue to feel somewhat guilty about it!

Incidentally Mona Lisa Smile is a great movie to see how much women were trained to put men's needs before their own. So glad I didn't live then...

Sorry, OP, I realise that was a complete tangent!

Dunno. Just look at mumsnet threads. My experience is that men's lives and concerns are prioritised over that of women and that the women are expected to subsume their needs in a way men aren't. But I don't know how representative or extreme my experience is either.

I can't believe I'm that unusual!

Well you're very lucky to have had that experience.

Fair enough basil, but I object to sweeping generalisations and a blanket statement saying that women are socialised or trained to......(whatever!) gets my back up. That is not my experience or that of my social group

ifeelloved, saying women are trained to care more about men's needs than those of women, doesn't mean that every woman everywhere is efficiently socialised to feel that. As a general cultural phenomenon though, i think it is true, there is plenty of literture out there about it

TheSmallClanger that's a really good point. Someone else complaining about being victimised, may well trigger really negative feelings that take someone else back to how they felt when it was happening to them and they just don't want to go there because they can't deal with it emotionally; or they have dealt with it and feel that other women should just deal with it the way they did, like those women who resent younger women having proper decent maternity rights "because in my day, you just had to get on with it and younger women don't know they're born now, they have far too many rights, we managed it so why can't they"? - lots of people like pulling the ladder up behind them and making sure that the people who come after them, don't have it any easier than they did, because it then protects their spot as a member of an elite who had to fight really hard to get there.

Sorry I totally disagree with the statement that women are socialised to care more about what happens to men than women.

That may be true for some people but not all. I am a woman and I do not care more about dh's needs than mine! And none of my female friends think that way either.

This could be because I watched my mum tiptoe round my dad and could see it for the bullshit it was!

Op, I think you have to continue with your complaint, don't let him bully you, he (and your employers) need to know that his behaviour is unacceptable and I agree it's very disappointing that your female colleague might not back you up. I would also be furious with a comment like that.

Not surprising at all. When I was finally able to report a man who had been stalking me at work for ages, his female supervisor rang me up and tried to guilt-trip me into dropping the accusation.

I sometimes think there's a bit of denial going on. Many, many women have been harrassed at work in various ways, and I think some, especially older ones, find it uncomfortable to support other women. It's partly due to the reasons stated in other posts above, but I think there's an element of bad feeling because they themselves have never challenged that kind of behaviour. Sometimes it's because they were unable, and sometimes it's because they decided it wasn't worth the bother. Either way, there can be a bit of resentment there.

Actually yes that's true Messy.

This woman may be one of those lucky ones who if she lost her job, it would be inconvenient and uncomfortable for her family, but it wouldn't be a complete disaster because her DH's wage would just about stretch to enable them to continue to function financially.

Whereas she assumes that his wage is the main one for his family.

And it's her responsibilty to ensure he doesn't lose it.

Not his.

Mosman, what did you actually say to her when she asked you that? How did the conversation wind up?

It's because we have all this "Man is the breadwinner/protector/provider, Man is just earning an honest wage for his family" bollocks shoved down our throats all the time.

ankles obviously, not ancles.

interesting basil, I thought the same yesterday over the flasher thread (teenaged boy with trousers and pants around his ancles, in childrens playpark....so many posters said it was a harmless teenager prank, and they wouldnt want it to ruin his life by reporting him to police because (shock!) he might end up on the sex offenders register!. Teen in question was 17/18, not some flighty 13yo.)

If she is a victim of bullying (and you said yourself it took a while for you to stand up to him), you can't really blame her if she doesn't happen to feel ready or willing to face the situation at exactly the same moment that you do. Maybe it was just something to say, a way of deflecting the issue.

I mean OK, maybe she is just "silly", but you know ... maybe not. For all we know she could have a history of being bullied/abused and not being believed.

Whatever her real reasons for not wanting to pursue it, surely you sort of have to feel your frustration, then let it go and move on and pursue your complaint without her involvement. Maybe once things are in motion, she will find it within herself to take a more active role?

Tbh, I shouldn't make any attempt to point out the errors of her thinking in this case. She may end up regarding you as an aggressor, seeing herself as being between a rock and a hard place.

People can be disappointing, but ultimately you can only rely on yourself in the workplace. You can only hope she will give an honest account if called upon to do so.

Don't be too hard on L. Maybe she's sorrier for the woman married to this arsehole than she is for herself and for you.

However, pragmatically its unlikely he'll lose his job, he might be reprimanded and given a warning. Its then totally up to him whether he carries on his unacceptable behaviour or not. I did hear of one case of someone who did lose his job for sexual harrassment but he was actually the HR manager so was presumably held to a higher standard than is usual.

So, tell her this, make her realise its his responsibility to behave professionally.

You think Basil was 'condemning the female population' with her comment Sanjeev? You haven't got any brighter have you? Analysis fail.

OP - I agree with Basil's reading. A very frustrating situation for you.

Oh sorry Mosman, I was assuming she was a young graduate, I misunderstood.

Well, a lot of silly young women become silly middle aged women and afterwards, become silly old women.

Sanjeev could you please try not to make silly remarks to me.

So Mosman, do you think she'd be amenable to talking about how your families matter as much as his family, and that unlike him, you two haven't actually done anythign wrong which might endanger the welfare of your families, but he has, and that he is responsible for any consequences that befall him as a result of his actions, you two are not responsible for the consequences of his actions?

Some people just shy away from conflict, regardless of whether they are male or female. I don't think you can condemn the whole of the female population from the reaction of L alone. After all, Mosman has managed to overcome her 'social conditioning'.