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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am racking my brains here, and coming up with NOTHNG...

81 replies

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 12:27

Please help me...

I am writing a dissertation on stereotyping in KS2 children, and have ground to a complete halt.

I am TRYING to think of ways to show that gender stereotyping is pervasive throughout our entire culture - but without mentioning specific things like the media, books, TV programming, advertising etc (they will come later).

All I can come up with so far is that the baby changing units is generally in the women's toilet room.

There must be more examples of mundane things that people hardly notice but which underline the gender roles in society???

OP posts:
lancelottie · 01/05/2012 13:35

How about children's books? i can't find the interview, but I think JK Rowling admitted she'd made her main character a boy because girls and boys will read about boys, but many boys won't read about girls.

lancelottie · 01/05/2012 13:33

Clothing is a good one in both directions, actually.

DS has a love of charity shops. He'll come home proudly with something v cheap a hat, a watch, or a t-shirt and then fret hugely that maybe he's accidentally bought a 'girl's one' and will be teased for it. Generally he thinks it's a 'girl's one' if it's lighter, daintier, paler or more decorative than a 'boy's one' (or doesn't have, say, skulls and skateboards on it to make it obvious).

There's one girl at DD's school who always wears boys' clothing. Now, given that they are all in sweatshirts and black trousers, you wouldn't think this would be obvious, but it is. Her trousers are loose-fitting, with pockets and a belt; the 'girls' ones' aren't. Her shoes are sturdy, with thick soles and trainer styling; the other girls have t-bars (and can't run as fast). Even her coat looks warmer and more practical.

The odd thing is that I only started to notice these things because, on a girl, you expect them less (and I have kids of both sexes and hand down clothes willynilly).

SeventhEverything · 01/05/2012 13:31

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slug · 01/05/2012 13:28

How about sport in schools? I notice my daughter's class almost exclusively play football for PE. There's little or no emphasis on games that are traditionally or exclusively played by girls. No netball for example. Is the suggestion that boys won't play a girl's game but it's OK for girls to play a 'boys' game? Given the professional game is exclusively male, what message does that send to girls?

What about school uniforms? How practical is a skirt or dress when it comes to play or even sitting on the carpet? How does this restrict what girls do? Why do schools persist in expecting girls to wear restricting dress?

How about inside the school. Why are the low paid jobs held by females and the high paid jobs held by men? Show me a male dinner lady or crossing supervisor. Why are the majority of primary headteachers male even though primary teaching is predominantly a female profession? Does the number of male teachers increase the higher up the school you go? And why is it that you are far more liable to see a male teaching year 6 than reception?

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 13:23

Think I will go for the clothing example - thank you! And maybe birthday cards...

The other stuff is all great too - I am finding it all really interesting - but it is for a later section :)

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SardineQueen · 01/05/2012 13:22

That in the week most of the people in the shops are women - their place in society is to be the people who go part-time after children, who stop working, who do the food shopping and the clothes shopping and keep things running at home
School run time it's majority women
Out late at night you are far more likely to see a man walking home by himself than a woman

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 13:21

differences in women's clothing - great. Women's is often less suitable for physical activity, and more revealing. Or in some cultures completely the opposite (as in burkas etc.).

Going to talk about the effect of advertising on children developing gender roles later.

Sardine - that was my thought - but it turns out that I just don't notice either! And no, street harassment would open a whole can of worms I don't have the word count for! I am focusing really on children developing gendered identity and stereotype knowledge - where it comes from and what effect it has on their aspirations etc.

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slug · 01/05/2012 13:19

Look at the media. Specifically look at film posters of children's movies. Try and spot a female. Look at heroes/action figures in movies. Spot any girls? How about children's TV? Count the male vs female presenters. Do the female presenters do the traditionally female things i.e. babies, home, passive activities. What about the male presenters? Do they do the more adventurous activities? Look at children's TV programmes. How many have girls in passive, less active roles? How many of the female characters are shown as good at science/maths without it being portrayed as something geeky or a bit different?

JarethTheGoblinKing · 01/05/2012 13:19

Oh, missed that bit Blush

SardineQueen · 01/05/2012 13:19

you say you don't want to touch on the media but for me the everyday things as per average high street would be stuff like

women's dress being linked to sex - at one extreme or the other - either much more revealing that men or much more covered up while men get a comfotable place in the middle
lads mags on the shelves
a comment about appearance or a toot of a horn from a man driving past
people stopping to coo over a little girl in a party frock
stuff like that?

JarethTheGoblinKing · 01/05/2012 13:16

Advertising? Things like P&G - proud sponsor of Mum's, usually only showing Mum in adverts about anything baby related. Too obvious maybe?

mrsruffallo · 01/05/2012 13:15

How about headscarves/ burkas? They are seen everyday by London kids at least, and it is solely women wearing them.

SardineQueen · 01/05/2012 13:15

You could do it as "walking down the average high street you will see" and then put all the everyday things that people just don't notice. Something like that?

SardineQueen · 01/05/2012 13:13

Women's clothing at all stages of life being more revealing/tighter than men's?

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 13:12

Mrsruffalo - yes.

I so far have :Gender stereotyping is pervasive throughout our society (REF) ? we see it every day in a multitude of mundane places and rarely think to question the ideology behind it (REF). The placement of baby changing units in female (but not male) toilets, and (men at work road signs? other examples?) all serve to remind us that the place of the woman is in the home or as a nurturer whilst man is the provider(REF).

Obviously that is not the entire argument - I am covering the evolutionary debate too - but I need to start SOMEWHERE. I will probably change it before I have finished anyway... I keep rewriting this blooming thing... Think maybe I need to change the last bit too.

I am slowly going insane here...

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 01/05/2012 13:12

Are you going to cover street harrassment?

SardineQueen · 01/05/2012 13:11

Men feeling it is OK to comment about women's & girls appearances on the street?
Even being told to "smile, love" is a reminder to women that they are constantly being appraised on their appearance by men

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 13:08

funnily enough it is harder to think of things that stereotype men than women.

And there is a lot less of either than there was when "i were a girl"...

I was trying to avoid talking about children specifically at this point - as I am arguing (currently) that children get their ideas about stereotyping from adult society...

On the plus side I have managed to track down that article I was looking for. Hoorah!

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Sanjeev · 01/05/2012 13:07

I can only speak as I found Edith, but my daughter played for the school football team. They had a girls squad, and played against half a dozen other teams in the area (Notts/Lincs). There were no sports that were girls only (my son went there too) - cross-country, hockey, lacrosse, football. They even had golf lessons available!

I do think the women-only changing is not the issue it was 10 or 20 years ago. I have seen many a dad struggling with the pampers Grin.

When I was at school, boys did woodwork and girls did cookery. I don't remember having a choice. Is this still the case?

mrsruffallo · 01/05/2012 13:07

So it's a simple opening line you are looking for? How about 'When I was on Mumsnet..."

JarethTheGoblinKing · 01/05/2012 13:01

What about clothing? Boys t-shirts saying 'Trouble' or 'Little Monkey', and girls ones with pink sparkles emblazoned with 'Little Princess' or some other cobblers.

SardineQueen · 01/05/2012 12:58

I notice how people react to little girls (esp in a dress) with lots of praise about being pretty, while boys much more rarely get comments praising their appearance.

DD1 is in reception and the boys have told her that "girls aren't allowed to play football".

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 12:56

Oh pfooey, Mrsruffallo.

If you don't want to be helpful, then don't be.

But don't be all "holier than though". It is a fucking research project - I have done the research, and the reading, and the findings. And I did read a really good article written for teachers of High School suggesting ways to challenge mundane stereotyping. But I am buggered if I can find it now. It could take me hours of looking. All for the sake of a simple sentence to start off the paragraph on stereotyping in society.

I have mother and baby rooms, and "men at work" signs. Whilst the toy shop thing is huge, it is too deliberate. I am trying to think of things so subtle we barely notice them. Which is why I am finding it tricky...

I think bikes are more unisex now - other than the colours...

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EdithWeston · 01/05/2012 12:51

In KS2, football culture has begun. Boys play football in school (games lessons may well be divided with boys playing football, and girls rounders). Football also requires space, so to let the boys play during breaks, the area available for girls' games is compromised.

Boys have almost entirely dropped out of ballet by that time (even those who enjoyed it in the nursery/reception). Few girls take up martial arts, even though junior classes begin at this age.

Sanjeev · 01/05/2012 12:50

Do they still make girls bikes with lower cross-bars, so that missy doesn't have to cock a leg over? Most girls I see now are in jeans anyway.